Deliberately affecting ball in motion

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Taken from another thread.

If 2 players agree to leave a ball marker in a position that is likely to affect the outcome of a putt, say leaving a big marker on the low side near the hole. Are they in breach?

Obviously if no agreement is made then i dont think its an issue, but if player 1 asks if his marker should be moved and player 2 specifically asks for it to be left stating it may help, is there a penalty?

Checked rule 14, 11 and 22 but couldnt really get to an answer....
 

Swango1980

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And, to save people searching for the Rule 15.3c. it says:

"If a ball-marker might help or interfere with play, a player may:
  • Move the ball-marker out of the way if it is his or her own, or
  • If the ball-marker belongs to another player, require that player to move the ball-marker out of the way, for the same reasons as he or she may require a ball to be lifted under Rules 15.3a and 15.3b.
The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.Either the lifted ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2) or the ball-marker must be replaced to mark that spot.Penalty for Breach of Rule 15.3 General Penalty. "

However, I notice that the rule uses the word "may" before the bullet points. Therefore, that does not indicate they must have the marker moved.
 
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Someone put me out of my misery then ...

Have looked at 11.1a, 11.1b, 15.3c and the clarification on backstopping - and to me , looks like no penalty for ball played from on the green, hitting a ball-marker in the circumstances described by the OP. Am I right or wrong?
 

Neilds

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Someone put me out of my misery then ...

Have looked at 11.1a, 11.1b, 15.3c and the clarification on backstopping - and to me , looks like no penalty for ball played from on the green, hitting a ball-marker in the circumstances described by the OP. Am I right or wrong?
Penalty for Breach of Rule 15.3: General Penalty.
This penalty also applies if the player:
  • Makes a stroke without waiting for a helping ball or ball-marker to be lifted or moved after becoming aware that another player (1) intended to lift or move it under this Rule or (2) had required someone else to do so, or
  • Refuses to lift his or her ball or move his or her ball-marker when required to do so and a stroke is then made by the other player whose play might have been helped or interfered with.
 

Swango1980

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Penalty for Breach of Rule 15.3: General Penalty.
This penalty also applies if the player:
  • Makes a stroke without waiting for a helping ball or ball-marker to be lifted or moved after becoming aware that another player (1) intended to lift or move it under this Rule or (2) had required someone else to do so, or
  • Refuses to lift his or her ball or move his or her ball-marker when required to do so and a stroke is then made by the other player whose play might have been helped or interfered with.
That still doesn't confirm if it is a penalty or not, for the scenario described by OP
 

Blue in Munich

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Taken from another thread.

If 2 players agree to leave a ball marker in a position that is likely to affect the outcome of a putt, say leaving a big marker on the low side near the hole. Are they in breach?

Obviously if no agreement is made then i dont think its an issue, but if player 1 asks if his marker should be moved and player 2 specifically asks for it to be left stating it may help, is there a penalty?

Checked rule 14, 11 and 22 but couldnt really get to an answer....
The other player was an opponent so I'm not sure agreement covers it; he was free to move it if he wanted to.
 

IanMcC

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Maybe of mild interest (but probably not) I had a putt on our third green on Wednesday. It was a left to right breaker. We have a nearest the pin comp, and on Wednesday it was at the par 3 third. We have cylindrical yellow markers marking the spot of NTP, with a sheet of paper inside for names. The marker was just outside the line of my putt. I reckoned if I hit it square on, I was missing anyway. I elected to leave the marker on the green. If I was a fraction wide, I reckoned I might get a ricochet off of the tube/spike which may propel it towards the hole. As it turned out, I was just too wide, and it did hit the spike, but the right hand side of it, kicking it further from the hole. I got my 3. Did I do anything outwith the rules here?
 
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Maybe of mild interest (but probably not) I had a putt on our third green on Wednesday. It was a left to right breaker. We have a nearest the pin comp, and on Wednesday it was at the par 3 third. We have cylindrical yellow markers marking the spot of NTP, with a sheet of paper inside for names. The marker was just outside the line of my putt. I reckoned if I hit it square on, I was missing anyway. I elected to leave the marker on the green. If I was a fraction wide, I reckoned I might get a ricochet off of the tube/spike which may propel it towards the hole. As it turned out, I was just too wide, and it did hit the spike, but the right hand side of it, kicking it further from the hole. I got my 3. Did I do anything outwith the rules here?
Does R11.1 exception 2 apply here with a 2SP?
 
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My thoughts,

As the player asked, and Blue in Munich stated that the marker would help in its current position and asked for it not to be moved, they are agreeing not to follow the rules. If this had been a ball left near the whole and Blue had asked for it not to be marked, then theyd both be disqualified.

But the way the rules worded wouldnt give me the confidence to apply any penalty in his actual scenario. Particularly as its match play and theres in effect no field to protect then who cares. If it was strokeplay, then I might feel differently, but still wouldnt feel like the wording supports any penalty very strongly...
 
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Does R11.1 exception 2 apply here with a 2SP?
Yes, but no penalty if the stroke is cancelled and replayed as it should be. Ian, however, did not do so and would have incurred a penalty for playing from a wrong place with his 3rd shot. He scored 5 but if, as one would expect, the competition is closed, the 3 stands.
 
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Yes, but no penalty if the stroke is cancelled and replayed as it should be. Ian, however, did not do so and would have incurred a penalty for playing from a wrong place with his 3rd shot. He scored 5 but if, as one would expect, the competition is closed, the 3 stands.
I can accept that. But, maybe, the tube may be construed as a ball marker. It certainly fits in with the description in Definitions. If it is indeed recognised as a ball marker, which in reality it surely is (because it is marking the position of a ball) then surely aforementioned Exception 2 says the stroke counts, and must be played as it lies. Which is what I did.
 
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I can accept that. But, maybe, the tube may be construed as a ball marker. It certainly fits in with the description in Definitions. If it is indeed recognised as a ball marker, which in reality it surely is (because it is marking the position of a ball) then surely aforementioned Exception 2 says the stroke counts, and must be played as it lies. Which is what I did.
It is only a movable obstruction, not a ball-marker. Stroke doesn't count and must be replayed. Even a ball-marker is only a movable obstruction when it is not currently marking the position of a lifted ball (see the definition of ball-marker).
 
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Taken from another thread.

If 2 players agree to leave a ball marker in a position that is likely to affect the outcome of a putt, say leaving a big marker on the low side near the hole. Are they in breach?

Obviously if no agreement is made then i dont think its an issue, but if player 1 asks if his marker should be moved and player 2 specifically asks for it to be left stating it may help, is there a penalty?

Checked rule 14, 11 and 22 but couldnt really get to an answer....
There is no penalty in this scenario. 15.3c is not relevant, it only provides a right to have an assisting/interfering ball-marker moved, it is not a universal obligation to act. But if anyone intervenes to say that ball-marker needs to be moved because it is helping, it must be moved.
There are significant differences between the rules treatment of a ball and a ball-marker, this is one of them.
 
Thread starter #16
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There is no penalty in this scenario. 15.3c is not relevant, it only provides a right to have an assisting/interfering ball-marker moved, it is not a universal obligation to act. But if anyone intervenes to say that ball-marker needs to be moved because it is helping, it must be moved.
There are significant differences between the rules treatment of a ball and a ball-marker, this is one of them.
Didnt player 1 intervene by saying he wanted it left because it might help? Semantics I know... i believe you're right.
 
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If no-one says that ball-marker needs to be moved, then it doesn't need to be moved and the person playing has to live with the outcome (Exception to the 11.1b Exception).
Yeah, i agree, but what if a player specifically asks for it not to be moved to help increase the chances if thier ball going in.

I still think its not very clearly written...
 
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Yeah, i agree, but what if a player specifically asks for it not to be moved to help increase the chances if thier ball going in.

I still think its not very clearly written...
Another player can require him to move it. 15.3c is very clear (my emphasis):

If a ball-marker might help or interfere with play, a player may:
  • Move the ball-marker out of the way if it is his or her own, or
  • If the ball-marker belongs to another player, require that player to move the ball-marker out of the way, for the same reasons as he or she may require a ball to be lifted under Rules 15.3a and 15.3b.
 
Thread starter #20
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Another player can require him to move it. 15.3c is very clear (my emphasis):

If a ball-marker might help or interfere with play, a player may:
  • Move the ball-marker out of the way if it is his or her own, or
  • If the ball-marker belongs to another player, require that player to move the ball-marker out of the way, for the same reasons as he or she may require a ball to be lifted under Rules 15.3a and 15.3b.
Yeah that is very clear, but the question was can a player demand another player doesn't move it?

If a player asked for a ball to be marked, all very well, but if a player asked for a ball to be left... penalties... is it the same for a marker?
 
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