"Declaring" a ball as lost.

Once again, to all those who have replied, I am grateful for your input and apologise for my lateness in returning to this thread
Yesterday evening I was caught up in club comp deadline madness - five sets of players hoping to knock off around 4/4.30 to find a visiting society on a shotgun texas scramble in the afternoon. I ended up playing the last hole around 8.15pm in darkness.
Yes, checking first would have been sensible.
Today we had to tee off at 6.55am - "illegally" - as the Saturday morning medal started at 7.30 and no-one is allowed on the course beforehand, hoping that one certain killjoy didn't spot us out there.

As for my OP I stand corrected on one point at least. My fellow players were FC's not playing partners - a loose expression on my part.
FC1 hadn't looked for my ball when he asked if I wanted to walk on and play my second ball.
When I did he simply took a look in the shrubbery, saw a ball. retrieved it and held on to it - although he knew my marking.
He is a mid teen HC and I am 27HC and he has become a good pal who has "taken me under his wing" in helping me to improve my game and course management.
So, no issue of cheating on his part. He returned it after the hole was finished

Since I posted I've googled the rules (late at night) and asked other players and our Pro.
Here's my conclusion - please correct me if wrong on any point
1 The correct thing to do if I deemed ball 1 a "lost cause" was just place another ball on the tee and strike it. That ball is then in play.
2 If I declared a "provisional" I don't have to look for ball 1,nor do my opponents, but if an opponent chooses to, and finds it, I cannot refuse to ID it and therefore have to play it under penalty.
3 If I declare ball 2 a "provisional" and strike it before an opponent finds ball 1 the provisional is in play.

As my provisional was 200 yds further down the fairway point 3 was unlikely.

Finally, FC2 didn't bother looking because FC1 strongly stated that I don't have to say anything and can just walk on.
FC2 thought I had to declare my ball lost, which I believe is a fallacy?

I hope I have clarified my dilemma somewhat.
In future it appears I have to decide on declaring a "provisional" or saying nothing.

Edit:
I'm not sure what time zone this forum is based on but my post was made at 16.11 UK
 
Last edited:
Sid,
I've added comments in red after your various points. Hope they are helpful.

Sid Rixon IV said:
FC1 hadn't looked for my ball when he asked if I wanted to walk on and play my second ball. Good etiquette in stroke play to ask what the player wants to do.

When I did he simply took a look in the shrubbery, saw a ball. retrieved it and held on to it - although he knew my marking. Not so clever. He should have taken you at your word and walked on without a sideways glance (etiquette not a rules requirement). Because he saw a ball he should have told you and you should have gone over to see if it were yours.
He is a mid teen HC and I am 27HC and he has become a good pal who has "taken me under his wing" in helping me to improve my game and course management.
So, no issue of cheating on his part. He returned it after the hole was finished Good to know it was an innocent mistake. That, in terms of the rules, simply means that your ball was moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) No penalty to him. If you didn't find out about it till the next hole or later, no penalty to you either and your score with the provisional would stand. If you found out about it before commencing the next hole, you should have gone back to play the original ball from where it had been picked up without penalty, your strokes with the provisional not counting.
Since I posted I've googled the rules (late at night) and asked other players and our Pro.
Here's my conclusion - please correct me if wrong on any point
1 The correct thing to do if I deemed ball 1 a "lost cause" was just place another ball on the tee and strike it. That ball is then in play. Correct that the action of playing another ball from the tee put that ball into play. Your original ball, however, is not "lost" until you have made the stroke.
2 If I declared a "provisional" I don't have to look for ball 1,nor do my opponents, but if an opponent chooses to, and finds it, I cannot refuse to ID it and therefore have to play it under penalty. Correct you don't have to look for your original ball. Correct that your opponent (match play) or fellow competitor (stroke play) can look for it and if he finds a ball you must check it out and play it if it is yours. Usual etiquette is to abide by the player's wishes and not look for the ball in stroke play but acceptable for an opponent to do so in match play.
3 If I declare ball 2 a "provisional" and strike it before an opponent finds ball 1 the provisional is in play. Not quite right. The provisional is only in play when it has been played from where the original was likely to be or from nearer the hole. Up to that point it can be played as many times as necessary and remains a provisional

As my provisional was 200 yds further down the fairway point 3 was unlikely.

Finally, FC2 didn't bother looking because FC1 strongly stated that I don't have to say anything and can just walk on.
FC2 thought I had to declare my ball lost, which I believe is a fallacy? Correct - it's an amazingly persistent error to think you can declare a ball lost. I was told that by a member of my club within the last two weeks!

I hope I have clarified my dilemma somewhat.
In future it appears I have to decide on declaring a "provisional" or saying nothing.

Edit:
I'm not sure what time zone this forum is based on but my post was made at 16.11 UK. Perhaps Golf Monthly hasn't noticed we are into BST :)
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I agree with Colin ' comments and would reinforced that FC1's actions did you no favours at all.
No one is suggesting that he was deliberately cheating, however if I was a committee member I would start with the question as to why he acted as he did; effectively he decided for you how the rules applied - which is not his choice.
 
Colin, thank you for your detailed and helpful reply.
Regarding your "not quite right" comment about playing the provisional, I already understood that point but expressed my interpretation a little vaguely.
Many thanks - and to all others.
 
duncan mackie said:
I agree with Colin ' comments and would reinforced that FC1's actions did you no favours at all.
No one is suggesting that he was deliberately cheating, however if I was a committee member I would start with the question as to why he acted as he did; effectively he decided for you how the rules applied - which is not his choice.
Click to expand...
Duncan, technically you're correct - thank you.
I'll defend his action though as his intention is simply to assist and educate me as a friend despite being an opponent.
 
Colin L said:
1-3 doesn't apply here, Marc. As you say yourself, it is about an agreement between or amongst players. If the player deliberately picked up and pocketed the other player's ball without telling him, he is acting on his own. He is cheating in order to affect the outcome of the competition. I would simply disqualify under Rule 3-4 or Rule 33-7 and look for disciplinary action against him by his Club.

Could you re-think your reference to Rule 1-2 ii as there isn't a rule with that number.
Click to expand...

After reading rule 3-4, it is more accurate to the situation.
I learn, I will be good at this, I only don't tell when that will be.
 
duncan mackie said:
I agree with Colin ' comments and would reinforced that FC1's actions did you no favours at all.
No one is suggesting that he was deliberately cheating, however if I was a committee member I would start with the question as to why he acted as he did; effectively he decided for you how the rules applied - which is not his choice.
Click to expand...
I would agree with your comments, colin L's comments and anyone else who knows the rules and references the rule number:thup:
 
I visited this section to ask a similar question, so similar that I wont start a new thread...

At my course there is a short par 3 with an area of quarry / scrub between tee and green. It is not a rare occurrence for a ball to be hit into this area, and, when it is, it is likely, but not certain, that the ball if found will be unplayable. Often the ball will be clearly visible.

My question is whether I can declare a ball landing in this area as unplayable without leaving the tee to look at it?

This would avoid the situation of hitting a provisional within a few feet of the hole then spotting the first ball in an unplayable position , going back to the tee and putting that one back into the quarry (this has happened to me)!
 
effayjay said:
I visited this section to ask a similar question, so similar that I wont start a new thread...

At my course there is a short par 3 with an area of quarry / scrub between tee and green. It is not a rare occurrence for a ball to be hit into this area, and, when it is, it is likely, but not certain, that the ball if found will be unplayable. Often the ball will be clearly visible.

My question is whether I can declare a ball landing in this area as unplayable without leaving the tee to look at it?

This would avoid the situation of hitting a provisional within a few feet of the hole then spotting the first ball in an unplayable position , going back to the tee and putting that one back into the quarry (this has happened to me)!
Click to expand...

I'd say that you can't play a provisional if you can see for 100% certain your OB. If you decide in advance before leaving the tee that your OB will almost certainly be unplayable and the only option would be back to the tee - you can just decide to put another ball in play. Otherwise if you don't put a new ball in play; get to your ball and decide if it unplayable, you take relief drop (one shot) or back to the tee.

If you can't see your ball but are pretty certain it's unplayable the decision is your. Provisional or new ball in play. But playing a provisional means you might have to go back to tee if OB found.
 
Last edited:
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I'd say that you can't play a provisional if you can see for 100% certain your OB. I'd say you decide in advance that it almost certainly will be unplayable and the only option would be back to the tee - and so just decide to put another ball in play. Otherwise you don't put a new ball in play - get to your ball and decide if it unplayable, you take relief drop (one shot) or back to the tee.
Click to expand...

Sorry should have added that you cant see into the quarry from the tee, hence the question of whether the ball can be declared unplayable without actually seeing it.
 
effayjay said:
Sorry should have added that you cant see into the quarry from the tee, hence the question of whether the ball can be declared unplayable without actually seeing it.
Click to expand...

I think my reply covers if you can't see ball. You can play a provisional but might have to go back to the tee - or you just put another ball into play - doesn't matter then if you find your OB
 
Why do you have to see it when you can declare a ball unplayable in the middle of a fairway with a perfect lie (why would you though!)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

C
No concession query
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
Steven Rules
S
D
Provisional Ball Holed
Replies
1
Views
1K
Steven Rules
S
J
Naming a provisional ball
8 9 10
Replies
184
Views
14K
salfordlad
S
G
Penalties on Provisional Balls
Replies
17
Views
3K
IanM
IanM
D
Can somebody place the ball on the tee and retrieve the ball from the hole for a playing partner?
Replies
10
Views
2K
Steven Rules
S
Top