"Declaring" a ball as lost.

[Deleted member 15717]

That wouldn't work. If anyone else sees a ball in the area where your original ball is likely to be, you must check it out unless you have already played your provisional again from there or nearer the hole. If it is yours (and you are correct that only you can identify it) it is in play and you must play it.

Here's the Decision which tells you that you must look at any ball that is found before you have put the provisional into play.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2c-2

That is the bit that was missing from the R&A app...they don't put these decision bits in. They may be in the book, but not entirely sure...

 

[North Mimms]

I've had a FC competitor offer to look for my errant ball as "if I find it, it's ok for you to continue with your provisional"

Despite the fact that I had made it clear that the second ball i played off the tee was NOT a provisional- I was putting a new ball in play

 

[duncan mackie]

Would you be disqualified if your FC handed your ball back while walking down the next fairway?

no - sorry I didn't follow through with my 'it would be clear cut'. Once you have teed off on the next hole there's nothing you could do about the previous one. Your only course of action would be to set out to the committee what happened before returning the card to protect your interests, but the committee wouldn't be looking to penalise you unless you were complicit (through active or passive action - which is what Colin L was I suspect getting at). At the time you played a wrong ball you couldn't have known that you were doing so - only your FC had that knowledge (or knew it was possible).

 

[duncan mackie]

That is the bit that was missing from the R&A app...they don't put these decision bits in. They may be in the book, but not entirely sure...

the decisions on the rules are part of the rules.

they are part of the online Rules editions of both the R&A and USGA, but I believe that there is a cost to having them in the Rules App (rather than accessing the Rules sections online)

 

[Spuddy]

no - sorry I didn't follow through with my 'it would be clear cut'. Once you have teed off on the next hole there's nothing you could do about the previous one. Your only course of action would be to set out to the committee what happened before returning the card to protect your interests, but the committee wouldn't be looking to penalise you unless you were complicit (through active or passive action - which is what Colin L was I suspect getting at). At the time you played a wrong ball you couldn't have known that you were doing so - only your FC had that knowledge (or knew it was possible).

Thanks, that's what I suspected.

 

[MadAdey]

Tough one this, just been looking through the rules and it looks like his FC has screwed him over to be honest. He did nothing wrong by carrying on with his provisional as stated in rule 27(b) and if his FC had not alerted him to finding his ball then there would be no problem. So a couple of questions need to be sorted out:

a) if a fellow competitor finds your ball within 5 mins then is that ball now in play, even if the the player himself has not identified it.

b) after finishing the hole and his FC tells him he found his ball, should he then go back and play that ball from where it was under penalty of 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball when he played his provisional.

c) the moment he teed off on the next hole did he then DQ himself for not correcting the error.

IMO I would have been tempted to go back, play from where the original ball was and played the hole out under penalty of 2 strokes. Put both scores down then take it to the rules committee and let them decide on what my score should be.

 

[Jon321]

This rule has always confused me a little. Do you HAVE to look for your orginal? If you put one well left or right, declare a provisional and cream that down the middle, what is stopping you just going straight to the provisional and not even looking for the 1st? Can you tell your playing partners not to bother looking either?

 

[Slab]

This rule has always confused me a little. Do you HAVE to look for your orginal? If you put one well left or right, declare a provisional and cream that down the middle, what is stopping you just going straight to the provisional and not even looking for the 1st? Can you tell your playing partners not to bother looking either?

You don't have to look for it, once you've played a stroke at your prov from past the area your 1st was then your original becomes lost
You can tell your playing partner not to look for it (he'd be part of your team)
You can tell your fellow competitor not to look for it but they still might and you cant stop them if they want to do that


Hope I've got that right

 

[Kellfire]

Jon321,

You don't have to look for a ball but if someone else spots it, you must identify it as yours (or not). You can't stop FCs looking for it but if you've played your provisional before they do, from a spot advanced of where your original is likely to be, before it's found, then your provisional is the ball in play.

 

[Jon321]

Thanks guys. I guess it depends how competitive they want to be. If they want you to struggle, I guess they will have a look so you have to play it if they can find it.

 

[hovis]

I was playing in a semi final match play last year when i hit my ball into a deep wooded area. I knew if i found it i was screwed. So i said " I'm declaring that unplayable and going again" i smoked my ball down the middle.

My pp made it his duty to find my ball so i'd have to play it. He did! Followed by " I've found it, I've found it. You have to play it now"

A heated discussion took place on the fairway as i was trying to tell him my second ball was not a provisional as i declared it unplayable. Round and round we went

 

[Jon321]

Surely you were correct there then? I don't understand some people. Is winning that important that you have to be a complete tool about it.

 

[hovis]

Surely you were correct there then? I don't understand some people. Is winning that important that you have to be a complete tool about it.

The ironic thing is he was caught cheating a few months later and it transpired he had been kicked out of three clubs for this. He's been allowed to stay at the belfry but is indefinitely banned from comps

 

[Ethan]

I was playing in a semi final match play last year when i hit my ball into a deep wooded area. I knew if i found it i was screwed. So i said " I'm declaring that unplayable and going again" i smoked my ball down the middle.

My pp made it his duty to find my ball so i'd have to play it. He did! Followed by " I've found it, I've found it. You have to play it now"

A heated discussion took place on the fairway as i was trying to tell him my second ball was not a provisional as i declared it unplayable. Round and round we went

You can't declare a ball lost, but you can certainly declare it unplayable and replay the shot as one of the options. Normally you would do so having seen the ball, but it is your choice.

I would say that in this case, if you didn't leave the tee to look and instead just hit another, then you put that ball straight into play as soon as you hit it so the first ball was technically lost rather than unplayable. It doesn't matter if someone subsequently found it if you hadn't declared the second ball shot as a provisional. "I'll hit another", "Better reload" and so on do not constitute a declaration of a provisional. If your opponent had asked "Is that a provisional?" before you hit it, and you answered "yes" then it is a legit provo and your opponent could force you to play the original if found in bounds within 5 minutes.

Either way, sounds like you played 3 off the tee and that is fine and dandy.

 

[rulefan]

l your playing partner not to look for it (he'd be part of your team)

Hope I've got that right

Not quite. Playing Partner is the wrongly used term for Fellow Competitor. Unfortunately made popular by TV commentators.
The player playing with you in match play is your Partner,
The player playing against you in match play is your Opponent

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

Good afternoon.
Ive only just caught up with my thread.
Im off out shortly and want to study each response.
Ill post in several hours time as I think I need to offer some clarity.
Thanks to all who have responded so far.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Read through this and one question sticks in my mind.

In a 4BBB the OPs scenario happens but it is your own PP that goes looking for your ball; finds it; but waits until you've played your first shot with your provisional from past position of orig ball before giving you your original ball. Are you just playing as a team and that's OK? Doesn't feel right as I'm thinking that your PP is defacto acting as you. So he finds your ball is the same as you finding your ball. I guess nothing can be done if your opponents don't find out - or don't find out until you've both (?) tee'd off on next hole.

 

[duncan mackie]

Read through this and one question sticks in my mind.

In a 4BBB the OPs scenario happens but it is your own PP that goes looking for your ball; finds it; but waits until you've played your first shot with your provisional from past position of orig ball before giving you your original ball. Are you just playing as a team and that's OK? Doesn't feel right as I'm thinking that your PP is defacto acting as you. So he finds your ball is the same as you finding your ball. I guess nothing can be done if your opponents don't find out - or don't find out until you've both (?) tee'd off on next hole.

Your logic is correct as he is you, you played a wrong ball and 15-3 applies.
Deliberate cheating as you infer isn't really covered in the rules - if found out you will get DQ and probably more.

 

[Marc Cools]

My possibility's and thoughts about the competitor who finds the ball :

1/ The competitor who finds the ball but does not tell the player is in violation of rule 1-3, although there is no agreement, in equity 1-4, he prevents the operation of a rule by his deliberate act. DQ.

2/ Breach of rule 1-2 ii. Although it is not his ball but the rule states a ball in play. I think the ball is in play until it is lost. It is lost if a 5 minute search is expired or the provisional is played beyond the assumed position of the original ball. 2 strokes.

That's the best I can think of.

 

[Colin L]

1-3 doesn't apply here, Marc. As you say yourself, it is about an agreement between or amongst players. If the player deliberately picked up and pocketed the other player's ball without telling him, he is acting on his own. He is cheating in order to affect the outcome of the competition. I would simply disqualify under Rule 3-4 or Rule 33-7 and look for disciplinary action against him by his Club.

Could you re-think your reference to Rule 1-2 ii as there isn't a rule with that number.