"Declaring" a ball as lost.

[Sid Rixon IV]

I hit my tee shot deep into high shrubbery - and not all that far ahead.
I declare a provisional and absolutely cream it, spectacularly.
As we approach the whereabouts of my first ball partner 1 says "Do you actually want to find it "
I say "No"
He says "Then just walk on".
I walk on.
Partner 2 says I have to declare the first ball lost
Partner 1 says "He doesn't have to say anything at all".
He takes a look in the shrubbery and manages to retrieve a ball with a rod and pockets it.
I finish the par 5 hole on a 6 net 5.
He hands me back my ball.

Is he right?

 

[fundy]

You cant declare it lost, it becomes lost when you hit the next shot with your provisional from past where you think it is. Once the ball is found it is in play and you then cant play your provisional so hes the one in the wrong for not telling you hes found your ball thats in play

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

He hadn't found my ball when he asked me.
He asked me first then looked after I'd walked on.
Can I just walk on without bothering to look?
What if another player decides to look for it regardless of me walking on?

 

[williamalex1]

If he finds your first ball within the 5 mins and before you have played your provisional beyond the point of where your first ball lies.

Your first ball is in play and you must play it or declare it unplayable under penalty. The provisional is cancelled.Methinks.

 

[North Mimms]

The OP had the option of putting a new ball in play from the tee, instead of playing a provisional. Then it wouldn't matter if someone found his first ball.
The flaw here is that only provisional balls go long and straight.
A 3 of the tee ball normally heads for the same cabbage as the first one.

The "declaring a ball lost" must be the most frequently nonsense rule quoted

 

[Slab]

I think there might be more implications to the group than covered already but not sure what

We know there is a fair old distance between 1st ball & provisional and that an FC (I'm assuming its not a partner as stated but might be wrong) has found a ball in the right area but instead of asking the player to identify it, he not only retrieves it from its lie but then pockets it

Did the finder alert the player at all, if not there must be implications to this as its unlikely the player has reached & played his provisional yet so its still the ball in play (assuming a positive ID were made)

The FC/partner cant just go around picking up what he suspects is a ball in play and concealing it from the player surely

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Just had a flick through rule 27 about lost balls. If I am interpreting it right, a player has 5 minutes to find and identify it. It can't be found and identified by a FC. It has to be the player, his team, or a caddy of his team...so in theory you could carve it into the deep stuff, play a provisional, and then ignore your playing partners of they go and look for it

 

[Slab]

Just had a flick through rule 27 about lost balls. If I am interpreting it right, a player has 5 minutes to find and identify it. It can't be found and identified by a FC. It has to be the player, his team, or a caddy of his team...so in theory you could carve it into the deep stuff, play a provisional, and then ignore your playing partners of they go and look for it

I'm with you up to the last part, you can ignore their search but you cant ignore your FC if he actually finds a ball, the player must identify it as his or not (unless he's already played the prov but that doesn't seem likely in this case)

So did the finder fail to alert the player that a ball had been found (the player would then play the provisional) If so what penalty on the player who found, removed then concealed the ball?

Unless matchplay there's an entire field of players that may be impacted by the finder concealing the fact he's found a ball

 

[Deleted member 15717]

I'm with you up to the last part, you can ignore their search but you cant ignore your FC if he actually finds a ball, the player must identify it as his or not (unless he's already played the prov but that doesn't seem likely in this case)

So did the finder fail to alert the player that a ball had been found (the player would then play the provisional) If so what penalty on the player who found, removed then concealed the ball?

Unless matchplay there's an entire field of players that may be impacted by the finder concealing the fact he's found a ball

See, I am looking (rule 12 now) and I can't see anywhere where it says that you must identify your ball if a FC finds it...it may be an etiquette thing, but I can't see the wording to say you must do it. Could lead to an awkward round after though

 

[Colin L]

Just had a flick through rule 27 about lost balls. If I am interpreting it right, a player has 5 minutes to find and identify it. It can't be found and identified by a FC. It has to be the player, his team, or a caddy of his team...so in theory you could carve it into the deep stuff, play a provisional, and then ignore your playing partners of they go and look for it

That wouldn't work. If anyone else sees a ball in the area where your original ball is likely to be, you must check it out unless you have already played your provisional again from there or nearer the hole. If it is yours (and you are correct that only you can identify it) it is in play and you must play it.

Here's the Decision which tells you that you must look at any ball that is found before you have put the provisional into play.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2c-2

 

[Slab]

See, I am looking (rule 12 now) and I can't see anywhere where it says that you must identify your ball if a FC finds it...it may be an etiquette thing, but I can't see the wording to say you must do it. Could lead to an awkward round after though

The rules guys must be having a bit of a lie-in today but I'm pretty certain the player must ID the ball, I'll see if I can find the rule....



edit: I see Colin's up, Morning, sorry to wake you

Which rule is it & secondly is there a penalty on the player who found a ball if he has concealed the find?

thanks

 

[ManinBlack]

The definition of a lost ball says it is lost if the ball "is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or her caddies have begun to search for it" In this case, therefore, the ball was lost.

 

[Colin L]

The definition of a lost ball says it is lost if the ball "is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or her caddies have begun to search for it" In this case, therefore, the ball was lost.

You need to ask yourself when, in the OP's situation, did he start a search.

 

[Slab]

The definition of a lost ball says it is lost if the ball "is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or her caddies have begun to search for it" In this case, therefore, the ball was lost.

But the players ball was found but not identified & instead it was concealed by another player

So something must happen to counter this action

I'm thinking a DQ for the finding player but so far I cant find a rule

 

[Colin L]

The rules guys must be having a bit of a lie-in today but I'm pretty certain the player must ID the ball, I'll see if I can find the rule....



edit: I see Colin's up, Morning, sorry to wake you

Which rule is it & secondly is there a penalty on the player who found a ball if he has concealed the find?

thanks

Good morning! In case you didn't notice I had edited my post above, the rule is Decision 27-2c/2

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-27,d27-2c-2

 

[Colin L]

But the players ball was found but not identified & instead it was concealed by another player

So something must happen to counter this action

I'm thinking a DQ for the finding player but so far I cant find a rule

I'd like to hear from Sid before answering this.

Did the player who found a ball, draw your attention to it or did he just pocket it without saying anything so that you knew nothing about it?
If he pocketed it it without saying anything did he believe it was ok to do so because you were allowed to go on and play your provisional?
If he drew your attention to the ball, was it yours?

 

[Spuddy]

As far as I can see, only a committee member or forecadie is obliged to tell a player that a ball that may be his has been found. I can't find any decisions that say a FC must do the same.

 

[Slab]

I'd like to hear from Sid before answering this.

Did the player who found a ball, draw your attention to it or did he just pocket it without saying anything so that you knew nothing about it?
If he pocketed it it without saying anything did he believe it was ok to do so because you were allowed to go on and play your provisional?
If he drew your attention to the ball, was it yours?

Yeah I see what you're saying, in absence of knowing when the OP was informed of the find (as described it reads like after holing out with the prov but possible the alert was given and omitted from the post)









So, separate from the original scenario

If it was just found & concealed within 5 minutes but without notifying the player, what would happen to the player who concealed it?

I found this but it doesn't name an FC as having the same obligation as a caddy/committee member
27-2/2
Member of Committee Finds Player's Original Ball; Player Prefers to Continue with Provisional Ball

Q.Is a member of a Committee or a forecaddie obliged to inform a player that his original ball has been found, even if it is clear that the player does not plan to search for it because he would prefer to continue play with the provisional ball he has played?

A.Yes.

 

[duncan mackie]

But the players ball was found but not identified & instead it was concealed by another player

So something must happen to counter this action

I'm thinking a DQ for the finding player but so far I cant find a rule

Agree - as I understand the actions from the OP I would DQ under 3-4. The same would apply to a FC who found your ball when searching but deliberately pocketed it rather than advising you as an example.
As regards the player; if he had teed off at the next hole it's clear cut but here the ball was found within 5 mins and before he played his provisional so I believe that he should go back and proceed correctly with regard to that ball (and I would be dragging the FC back to show me exactly where it was found and replace it).

 

[Spuddy]

Agree - as I understand the actions from the OP I would DQ under 3-4. The same would apply to a FC who found your ball when searching but deliberately pocketed it rather than advising you as an example.
As regards the player; if he had teed off at the next hole it's clear cut but here the ball was found within 5 mins and before he played his provisional so I believe that he should go back and proceed correctly with regard to that ball (and I would be dragging the FC back to show me exactly where it was found and replace it).

Would you be disqualified if your FC handed your ball back while walking down the next fairway?