css

[Imurg]

T

As a Cat 1 golfer my buffer is 1 shot.
At APGC SSS is 69
Off 5 I have to shoot 75 to make buffer.
Standing on the last on a total score of 71, how do I know what score I need to make buffer if that number's going to possibly move?
With a tricky pin position, knowing I need a par 4 to make buffer, I would probably play for the centre of the green and 2 putt.
But then if, because OTHER PEOPLE have played well, CSS goes down to 68, all of a sudden I'm out of the buffer and back into Cat2.
If I knew I needed a birdie to make buffer then a shot at the pin would be the only play. But a tricky pin leaves the possibility of making 5.
So what do I do.....?

Go for the birdie and hope to get it right but possibly blow it altogether or play for the par knowing it might not be enough?

@Imurg. Your target should ALWAYS be SSS, +Hcap, MINUS 1 and enjoy the reduction that that brings if the CSS. has not been reduced. Now that you have achieved Cat 1, don't get defensive about staying there.

In my example, making a birdie isn't going to get me a cut. It'll mean I shoot SSS. OK if CSS goes up then I get a cut but that's not the issue.
Why risk making a 5 and missing buffer when a relatively straight forward par gets me in? I've no chance of a cut so making buffer is the next target. But if I make a 4 - and make buffer - if enough others make buffer or better then my "target" gets moved and my par isn't enough - that's my point.
In a situation where 1 shot either way means buffer or 0.1 back I have no means of knowing what to do. As a Cat1 player I am capable of going for the birdie but wouldn't consider it the safe play with a tricky pin.
The point about me going up to Cat2 was a by-the-by, if I go up I go up. But if I'd prefer to stay there!
And I'd prefer to stay there because of my play and not the scoring of others..

 

[bobmac]

Ian, try this on for size.......

If you want to get your handicap down, you have to get better.
So, on an average day, your scores have to come down.

If you went and played an easier course, you would expect a lower score, not because you are playing better but because the course is easier. It therefor has to have a lower SSS to reflect how easy it is.

If you play a medal at your own course and 1 person has a "special day" but the rest of the scores are normal, the CSS wouldn't change. If however lots of people handed in good scores, that would suggest the course is playing easier so if you have a lower score it's not because you're getting better, it's because the course is playing easier than normal, a fact backed up by the amount of other golfers who also scored well.

That's why your handicap won't change. Not because of how others played, because how easy the course played. The fact that others scored well just tells the computer it was an "easy day"

Also...

If you want to stay at Cat I, you'll have to stop thinking like a Cat II player

 

[jammydodger]

If you want to stay at Cat I, you'll have to stop thinking like a Cat II player

Harsh but true Bob , it is a state of mind and takes a little getting used to at first. One shot buffers and all that.

 

[Twire]

Ian, this 'system' got you to the handicap your at now. So your handicap is only relative to the CONGU system, so I'm failing to see what your problem is.

 

[chrisd]

Ian, this 'system' got you to the handicap your at now. So your handicap is only relative to the CONGU system, so I'm failing to see what your problem is.

Or did he get there despite the system?

 

[Imurg]

Ian, try this on for size.......

If you want to get your handicap down, you have to get better.
So, on an average day, your scores have to come down.

If you went and played an easier course, you would expect a lower score, not because you are playing better but because the course is easier. It therefor has to have a lower SSS to reflect how easy it is.

If you play a medal at your own course and 1 person has a "special day" but the rest of the scores are normal, the CSS wouldn't change. If however lots of people handed in good scores, that would suggest the course is playing easier so if you have a lower score it's not because you're getting better, it's because the course is playing easier than normal, a fact backed up by the amount of other golfers who also scored well.

That's why your handicap won't change. Not because of how others played, because how easy the course played. The fact that others scored well just tells the computer it was an "easy day"

Also...

If you want to stay at Cat I, you'll have to stop thinking like a Cat II player

So in my example I should just Gung-Ho and go for the birdie regardless of the outcome?
What happened to Course Management?
If I can't get cut then buffer has to be the next target - to preserve your handicap whatever it is...
If I go for the birdie, with a tough pin position, and take 5 then I'm going up. If I play conservatively and take 4 then, assuming the goalposts don't move, I've made buffer - which is the smarter play?

I know how the system works.
Just because a number of good score are posted doesn't automatically mean that the course is playing easier. All it proves is that a number of people have been playing well. Good scores are still posted in bad weather. Bad scores on a nice day.
And they don't have to be good scores either - enough at nett SSS and CSS goes down. Shooting SSS isn't anything special.

In my example, standing on the difficult last needing a par to make buffer, knowing that par actually may not be enough if CSS goes down but knowing that a birdie doesn't result in a cut but making a 5 trying for the birdie means 0.1 back - what would you do?

 

[Foxholer]

The point about me going up to Cat2 was a by-the-by, if I go up I go up. But if I'd prefer to stay there!
And I'd prefer to stay there because of my play and not the scoring of others..

It's not about 1 hole, it's about 18; so your 'Don't say 'play better on the earlier holes' actually asks us to avoid the bleedin' obvious. In truth, I've been pretty good at assessing whether CSS will reduce from course set-up and conditions, so would decide which approach to take from that - and it's only with a following wind and forward tee that I would consider going for the green in 2 anyway; much easier, for me, to get a birdie/3-pointer with the pitch/chip than getting on in 2 (and one of the courses is a Par 4!).

Bob's right (surprise!). You are still thinking like a Cat 2-er and it'll take a while before you change - apparently!

The odds for an aggressive play in your situation have changed - from 2:1 to evens (in this country.. Evens to 3:2) so value for the aggressive play is reduced. Play conservatively - hoping to sink the putt!

 

[Imurg]

In truth, I've been pretty good at assessing whether CSS will reduce from course set-up and conditions,

Then you're a better judge than most.
I'd say it's virtually impossible.
Good scores come in on bad days, bad scores on good days
It's more to do with how well people are playing than the conditions they're playing in.
How can you know how well others are playing?

 

[patricks148]

Ian, this 'system' got you to the handicap your at now. So your handicap is only relative to the CONGU system, so I'm failing to see what your problem is.

if my memory serves me right did't Imurg get cut buy supp cards at the end of last season and not competition play?

 

[Imurg]

Same meat different gravy, Patrick.:thup:
Yes it was a series of supplementaries.
The difference being that you know what your target is before you start......

 

[patricks148]

Same meat different gravy, Patrick.:thup:
Yes it was a series of supplementaries.
The difference being that you know what your target is before you start......

but didn't you just stick a load of good cards in and not pre notify before any of them as i remember, so these would only have taken in the sss for the day so if those days were easy days like the other posts mention then you got an additional cut per score that you may not have got in a comp?

Theres a course around the corner from where i live that is and easy course par 69 css is always 67 no cat 1 golfers there anymore.

 

[Foxholer]

Then you're a better judge than most.
I'd say it's virtually impossible.
Good scores come in on bad days, bad scores on good days
It's more to do with how well people are playing than the conditions they're playing in.
How can you know how well others are playing?

The bunch I played with, on the links course I played, used to estimate CSS - that seemed to be the standard conversation up the 4th/down the 5th so I got into that habit. And, with sufficient participants, it really does tend to be about course conditions. Probability is pretty consistently reliable too.

And as I posted, though you may have skipped over, if you always play as if the CSS is SSS-1, you are consistent. Then work out whether it's ever worth playing the last aggressively and adjust accordingly.

 

[Imurg]

Obviously not thinking like a Cat1 player, I'd still like to know what Cat1 players would do in my example...

Seems I need to put a Supplementary in tomorrow to try and get a 0.1 back and retake my rightful place in Cat2.....

 

[bobmac]

Obviously not thinking like a Cat1 player, I'd still like to know what Cat1 players would do in my example...

You have to assess each shot on it's own merit.
Easy/tough pin
wind/lie
etc
irrespective of your score.
Ideally, you won't even know your score.

Dont think about playing the hole and how it will affect your h/cap/buffer or whatever.
Play it the best you can.
If you think it's a sucker pin, leave it alone
If you have a good line in, go for it.

As a cat 1 golfer you should be thinking about getting pars or birdies on every hole you can and getting close to and under par every time you play.
If you stand over your second shot on the 18th worrying what the CSS will be, you've already lost.
Forget the h/cap.
Handicaps are only for those golfers who need help. You dont.
And if the CSS changes, there's nothing you can do about that.

 

[Imurg]

To be fair Bob, that's the way I've always played and the way I'll always play.
And it's getting a little off my main issue with CSS, which is my handicap being adjusted on the basis of others scores.
I can shoot buffer, 75 gross, and Fragger could be the last player to finish the comp.
If he holes his putt then he shoots buffer +2. If he misses then it's buffer +3.
He holes it, CSS goes down as a result and I go up. If he misses CSS stays the same and I don't.
That is my handicap being directly affected by someone else's play.
Is that fair on me?

 

[Bomber69]

but didn't you just stick a load of good cards in and not pre notify before any of them as i remember, so these would only have taken in the sss for the day so if those days were easy days like the other posts mention then you got an additional cut per score that you may not have got in a comp?

Theres a course around the corner from where i live that is and easy course par 69 css is always 67 no cat 1 golfers there anymore.

Surley not, you cant tell me that he just handed in "good" cards after a few bounce games in order to get his handicap down, you need to register prior to playing a suplimentery round, if we all did it the way you said he did then we could all have our handicaps where we want them, I find this bizzar if true.

Rick Garg has been trying all year to get to Cat 1 and has finaly done it the hard way, well done Rick by the way:thup:

 

[FairwayDodger]

We have a strange situation at my club.....

Ladies medals are played on both Friday and Saturday - you choose which day you play. I noticed last year that the CSS on a Friday is almost always higher than on a Saturday. Without wishing to offend anyone, I put that down to the younger (I use the term loosely) women - those with jobs - play on Saturday while the older ones play on Friday. Conditions are irrelevant - this even happens on weekends where the Friday saw perfect conditions and the Saturday was awful - the standard of golf played by the "Saturday Girls" is usually higher.

 

[rosecott]

If I knew I needed a birdie to make buffer then a shot at the pin would be the only play. But a tricky pin leaves the possibility of making 5.
So what do I do.....?

Go for the birdie and hope to get it right but possibly blow it altogether or play for the par knowing it might not be enough?

Answers on a postcard

Don't have a postcard handy but here's a direct quote from the CONGU handbook:

"The UHS is based on the following fundamental premises:
Every player will endeavour to make the best score he can at each hole in every qualifying round he plays."

 

[bobmac]

I put that down to the younger (I use the term loosely) women - those with jobs - play on Saturday while the older ones play on Friday.

Tempting....but I must resist

 

[FairwayDodger]

Tempting....but I mustn't

Grrrr!