css

[duncan mackie]

Not sure what the answer is but why not base it on the SSS alone? Sure on bad days everyone will go up 0.1 but that would probably be offset by the cuts on good days.

because people wouldn't necessarily play in both comps.....

taking the evidence of your post in isolation I would suggest that the handicap committee takes the appropriate action in relation to the relevant senior ladies handicaps at the annual review.....on everything I have seen there is a huge reticence to take any action!

 

[Imurg]

Not sure what the answer is but why not base it on the SSS alone? Sure on bad days everyone will go up 0.1 but that would probably be offset by the cuts on good days.

That's been my argument for ages...

We get our handicaps based on SSS - why not continue to use it to adjust handicaps?
Why should my handicap be affected by how other people play?

The scenario that, to me, shows CSS to be inherently unfair is this...

As a Cat 1 golfer my buffer is 1 shot.
At APGC SSS is 69
Off 5 I have to shoot 75 to make buffer.
Standing on the last on a total score of 71, how do I know what score I need to make buffer if that number's going to possibly move?
With a tricky pin position, knowing I need a par 4 to make buffer, I would probably play for the centre of the green and 2 putt.
But then if, because OTHER PEOPLE have played well, CSS goes down to 68, all of a sudden I'm out of the buffer and back into Cat2.
If I knew I needed a birdie to make buffer then a shot at the pin would be the only play. But a tricky pin leaves the possibility of making 5.
So what do I do.....?

Go for the birdie and hope to get it right but possibly blow it altogether or play for the par knowing it might not be enough?

Answers on a postcard.........

And before anyone says "play better earlier in the round" - :ears:

 

[Imurg]

Damn it - I wasn't going to get involved.....

 

[AmandaJR]

So why in an open, let's say sandy lodge, as an example, is CSS one shot higher for visitors than it is for members, playing in the same competition?

I guess that visitors usually find the course more difficult as they don't know it and the average scores/CSS calcs come out 1 shot higher.

 

[Imurg]

Supplementary cards have the same "clout" as Competition cards.....

Except they're based on SSS not CSS.

I can play with Fragger during the next comp. If I decide not to enter the comp but elect to put in a Supplementary, Fragger's handicap will be based around CSS but mine will be based around SSS.

It's logic, Jim, but not as we know it........

 

[AmandaJR]

Supplementary cards have the same "clout" as Competition cards.....

Except they're based on SSS not CSS.

I can play with Fragger during the next comp. If I decide not to enter the comp but elect to put in a Supplementary, Fragger's handicap will be based around CSS but mine will be based around SSS.

It's logic, Jim, but not as we know it........

In the case of our senior ladies the advantage is to be in the CSS not the SSS...

I'm almost looking forward to getting older!!

 

[pbrown7582]

So why in an open, let's say sandy lodge, as an example, is CSS one shot higher for visitors than it is for members, playing in the same competition?

Dependant on numbers separate CSS is worked out for visitors and home players, although I think away CSS can not be lower than home CSS.

 

[chris661]

Dependant on numbers separate CSS is worked out for visitors and home players, although I think away CSS can not be lower than home CSS.

You sure? At my place if there is a visitors css it is frequently lower.

 

[AmandaJR]

Another thing - why is the CSS based on the SSS and not the par?? We don't have any Cat 1 players never mind scratch so why base the CSS on anything but the par?

 

[duncan mackie]

Another thing - why is the CSS based on the SSS and not the par?? We don't have any Cat 1 players never mind scratch so why base the CSS on anything but the par?

because par is irrelevant and can be asigned at will by a club.

if your course was 6000 yds par 68 and another club was 5400 yds par 74 (both possible within length guidelines) and you played against them in a match - who do you think would win?

in the old days we were handicapped to par but then adjusted the handicap when 'travelling' in line with.....SSS (well it's equivilent). this is how the US system works today (an 12 is not a 12 is not a 12 - they could turn up at a comp and be playing off 11, 12 and 13 by the time the maths is done)

 

[pbrown7582]

Another thing - why is the CSS based on the SSS and not the par?? We don't have any Cat 1 players never mind scratch so why base the CSS on anything but the par?

Because handicaps are based on SSS not par to try and even the the system out over all courses.

 

[rosecott]

Another thing - why is the CSS based on the SSS and not the par?? We don't have any Cat 1 players never mind scratch so why base the CSS on anything but the par?

Amanda, really! Are you suggesting that a par 4 of 180 yards (lowest of the range for ladies) is comparable to a par 4 of 430 yards (highest of the range for ladies)?

 

[pbrown7582]

You sure? At my place if there is a visitors css it is frequently lower.

Yes am now just checked and if away CSS is lower than home a new CSS is supposed to be calculated for the whole field. Home players are supposed to statistically have a 1.5 shot advantage.

 

[chris661]

Yes am now just checked and if away CSS is lower than home a new CSS is supposed to be calculated for the whole field. Home players are supposed to statistically have a 1.5 shot advantage.

So a home player having a statistical 1.5 shot advantage is supposed to have the same css as a visitor

 

[pbrown7582]

So a home player having a statistical 1.5 shot advantage is supposed to have the same css as a visitor

My thoughts too I tried to paste link, but failed on my iPhone it's was a GUI guide as well.

 

[AmandaJR]

Amanda, really! Are you suggesting that a par 4 of 180 yards (lowest of the range for ladies) is comparable to a par 4 of 430 yards (highest of the range for ladies)?

Fair point. Wish we had a 180 yard par 4

because par is irrelevant and can be asigned at will by a club.

if your course was 6000 yds par 68 and another club was 5400 yds par 74 (both possible within length guidelines) and you played against them in a match - who do you think would win?

in the old days we were handicapped to par but then adjusted the handicap when 'travelling' in line with.....SSS (well it's equivilent). this is how the US system works today (an 12 is not a 12 is not a 12 - they could turn up at a comp and be playing off 11, 12 and 13 by the time the maths is done)

So that's the US Slope? Always seemed to make sense to me...

 

[chris661]

My thoughts too I tried to paste link, but failed on my iPhone it's was a GUI guide as well.

Well as I said if we have a visitor css it is usually lower and sometimes by two or three shots. Who knows it is the black arts after all

 

[SocketRocket]

It's not possible to judge a holes difficulty by it's yardage. I prefer the 'Slope system' where a players handicap gets adjusted by the course severity (not weather conditions)

 

[Foxholer]

There are anomalies/issues with both systems imo. And I've had experience of the Slope system too (and another that it replaced!)

We are 'stuck' with the UK system, so simpler to simply accept it - certainly better than trying to 'manipulate' it.

@Imurg. Your target should ALWAYS be SSS, +Hcap, MINUS 1 and enjoy the reduction that that brings if the CSS. has not been reduced. Now that you have achieved Cat 1, don't get defensive about staying there.

As Handicap is a 'relative' term anyway - comparing you with other golfers - it seems reasonable to do the same in competition results too. The Supplementary Card is relatively new and there is the anomaly of using both CSS and SSS on the same day. I'd consider it reasonable that any day a CSS was calculated, then that should used rather than the SSS. Amanda's Seniors issues is actually down to proper maintenance by Handicap Committee imo.

 

[chrisd]

I played last week in horrendous conditions in a stableford that, because of the rain, only attracted 4 entries. I scored 37 points which was 1 under par (nett). So, as its a small field, the CSS becomes the SSS and I dont get a cut in a situation where I was the only player to get anywhere near my handicap let alone better and, on the basis that CSS gives, or takes back, according to how the course plays on the day, it is a nonsense to me that I didn't get a small (.2) cut .