Cross Border rounds and handicapping

[IanM]

Basic impact analysis and implementation errors. Again.

 

[Foxholer]

You could always recalculate each players handicap manually - it’s not difficult.

I know within 0.1 ( rounding affect it) - what my new handicap will be within an hour of playing

That was going to be my next suggestion, literally takes 5 minutes to work it out manually ?

Playing Conditions Calculation excepted!!

 

[rulefan]

Basic impact analysis and implementation errors. Again. Sorry

Indeed. But a full implementation would have cost a fortune and more pertinently, not been implemented for another 5 years.
It really is not a major (or even minor) problem for by far the majority of golfers around the world.

 

[Swango1980]

Indeed. But a full implementation would have cost a fortune and more pertinently, not been implemented for another 5 years.
It really is not a major (or even minor) problem for by far the majority of golfers around the world.

Yet that argument seems to be ignored when WHS was largely sold as being a good thing as handicaps are portable worldwide. You could have copied your last sentence and used it to argue against implementing WHS in the first place, at least from the aspect of global handicaps

 

[rulefan]

Yet that argument seems to be ignored when WHS was largely sold as being a good thing as handicaps are portable worldwide.

The handicap itself is portable. The differences in the formulae are so minor the effect on the resultant Index or Playing Handicap is trivial. I doubt there are many Polish golfers travelling to New Zealand to play in a serious handicap competition.
I accept there is big issue in GB&I for two reasons. 1) Scotland going UDI and 2) the embedded nature of the ISVs in the rest of CONGU (and to an extent in Europe).

Incidentally, perhaps a Scot can tell me, did Scottish Golf commission the whole package (ie competition management (a la V1, IG HM etc) and the full blown WHS score processing and database or just the back end leaving the ISVs to continue with comps?

 

[AliMc]

Playing Conditions Calculation excepted!!

Have 30+ counting scores under whs, pcc hasn't kicked in once yet !

 

[rulefan]

A few points from the very first information put out by EG

How do I return my score at home? From Abroad? It is hoped that the technology will be in place to help with the posting of scores at the venue at which you play.
Who is responsible for this, and do I need to follow it up? This would be automatically processed.
How do I register and return away scores? Through the Sign-in system at the club you are visiting, you will be able to register before play and submit your scores on your return to the clubhouse.
How does my scorecard get signed if I am going to play abroad and input the score online? As the technology is developed we anticipate some form of digital signature from your playing partner.
Will there be an App for the submission of scores? It is hoped that in time an app will be available; but initially scores will be submitted at the club you have played
Will a player still need to return their scorecards if they are entering their scores online? Initially Yes, these need to be returned to your home club so that scores can be verified.
How are away cards verified at an away club? Scores should be posted at the venue played, and returned to your home club to ensure the score is properly recorded and signed. Not every card will need to be checked, but a random sample may be required.
What happens if a player pre-registers a round for handicapping purposes but fails to return a card? The score will be classed as a no return. However should the score, be known, will be posted by the Committee. If unknown, the Committee has discretion to apply a penalty score if the no return was for the purposes of manipulating a handicap.

 

[rosecott]

My club is Welsh. I live close to the border and have asked in many English pro shops this summer (just for a laugh) of I can register my round for handicap.

When I mention Wales, they look at me a shrug their shoulders.

I take a card home and stuck in the box in our clubhouse. Progress eh?

The home unions won't cooperate with each other for the same reasons as many other things in life!

There is one element of co-operation that has not been mentioned. If you are a member of a Welsh/Irish club with a CDH ID from their national system and you also join an English club, you can have an English CDH ID as well and it will be linked to your Welsh/Irish CDH ID.

Is there anyone on the forum that is in this situation and does it really work? I am a bit sceptical but would be interested to know.

 

[Colin L]

The

The handicap itself is portable. The differences in the formulae are so minor the effect on the resultant Index or Playing Handicap is trivial. I doubt there are many Polish golfers travelling to New Zealand to play in a serious handicap competition.
I accept there is big issue in GB&I for two reasons. 1) Scotland going UDI and 2) the embedded nature of the ISVs in the rest of CONGU (and to an extent in Europe).

Incidentally, perhaps a Scot can tell me, did Scottish Golf commission the whole package (ie competition management (a la V1, IG HM etc) and the full blown WHS score processing and database or just the back end leaving the ISVs to continue with comps?

The VMS [Venue Management System] is a complete management package free to affiliated clubs. Uptake is optional. Clubs such as my own are continuing to use an ISV for all but handicap management which is solely carried out by SG through the handicap module of the VMS. We can input scores either through an IVS or the SG app but handicap calculations are solely done by SG and the only full handicap is with SG.

I don’t get the UDI bit. The only difference seems to be that we have a Scottish Golf management system available in addition to the ISVS.

 

[rulefan]

Have 30+ counting scores under whs, pcc hasn't kicked in once yet !

Because of the algorithm used PCC is likely to produce fewer PCCs than the old CSS

 

[rulefan]

The

The VMS [Venue Management System] is a complete management package free to affiliated clubs. Uptake is optional. Clubs such as my own are continuing to use an ISV for all but handicap management which is solely carried out by SG through the handicap module of the VMS. We can input scores either through an IVS or the SG app but handicap calculations are solely done by SG and the only full handicap is with SG.

I don’t get the UDI bit. The only difference seems to be that we have a Scottish Golf management system available in addition to the ISVS.

Thanks Colin. That makes it clearer. The rest of CONGU opted for dot.golf a New Zealand WHS management system (already up and running I believe) whereas SG commissioned their own.

 

[3offTheTee]

Because of the algorithm used PCC is likely to produce fewer PCCs than the old CSS

For the uninitiated are you able to explain the algorithm/PCC in simple terms please?

 

[Swango1980]

For the uninitiated are you able to explain the algorithm/PCC in simple terms please?

Nobody knows the algorithm for PCC outside the authorities. It is a big secret.

 

[SammmeBee]

For the uninitiated are you able to explain the algorithm/PCC in simple terms please?

It doesn’t exist…….

 

[rulie]

For the uninitiated are you able to explain the algorithm/PCC in simple terms please?

It's really in the first sentence of this...

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/BreakingDownPCC_detailed.pdf

 

[Foxholer]

Have 30+ counting scores under whs, pcc hasn't kicked in once yet !

That's as may be (and the notes from a link above indicate that it will normally be zero), but my comment still holds true!

 

[rulefan]

For the uninitiated are you able to explain the algorithm/PCC in simple terms please?

With about the same difficulty than I can explain all 8 pages of Appendix B in the CONGU manual.

But this is what the WHS manual says:
Principle of the Rule:
Course Ratings are based on normal playing conditions, but the difficulty of a golf course can vary substantially from day to day, due to:
* Course conditions,
* Weather conditions, and/or
* Course set-up.
The playing conditions calculation (PCC) determines whether playing conditions on the day differed from normal conditions to the extent that an adjustment is needed to compensate. It is a daily statistical procedure that compares the scores submitted by players on the day against expected scoring patterns.
The purpose of this feature within the handicap calculation is to recognize that an average score submitted in harder playing conditions may be better than a good score submitted in easier playing conditions. Unadjusted, such a score may be omitted from the Handicap Index calculation.
If the PCC determines that acceptable scores submitted are in line with expected scoring patterns, then no adjustment is made.
The calculated adjustment is dependent upon:
* Whether significantly fewer players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be harder than normal.
* Whether significantly more players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be easier than normal.

 

[jim8flog]

Have 30+ counting scores under whs, pcc hasn't kicked in once yet !

In the comps I have played in this summer we have had 4 and I only play about 30% of the comps.

 

[upsidedown]

Have 30+ counting scores under whs, pcc hasn't kicked in once yet !

Have had 3 in my last 20 , all of them +2

 

[DickInShorts]

In the comps I have played in this summer we have had 4 and I only play about 30% of the comps.

I’ve also had at least 4 PCC adjustments this year - one of which was 2 the rest 1.