phoboter
New member
This scenario can't exist - the course making such changes would have to be re-rated, and the new CR would reflect the now increased difficulty of those long par 4's.
Course Rating
- Thread starter rulefan
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Swango1980
Well-known member
Why? The course has not changed. In this scenario, all I'm saying is that the Club have changed 2 holes, that may be 480ish yards long into Par 4's
Tee boxes are the same, greens are the same, no new bunkers or penalty areas have been added, etc.
Why would the CR change just because Par changes?
phoboter
New member
You can read about it on the England golf website, there's even a dedicated form for clubs to submit when they make a change to the course (CR002):
England Golf requires courses to be re-rated when there are permanent changes to the course, including changes to the par, to ensure the World Handicap System (WHS) accurately reflects the course's difficulty. This re-rating process involves updating the Course Rating and Slope Rating to maintain the integrity of the WHS.
Hopefully that's put to bed - i'm interested in hearing more views on my initial post.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I've just glanced through some of the course I've played this year, and pretty much every single one had a course rating lower than the par - usually by around 2. That seems to be the norm! I haven't played anywhere the course rating was higher. Closest was one where the CR was 0.2 lower than par. You must not play many courses if that's your rule!
(Small caveat - I'm always playing yellow tees at away courses. So if you routinely play the whites you might have different findings.)
Swango1980
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure "changes to the par" is in reference when a club makes physical changes to actually change the par. For example, selling land and shortening a hole to become a lesser par. Or extending a tee box to increase a hole from a Par 4 to a Par 5.
Not by making no physical changes, but just changing the scorecard.
I'm not a rater, but I've been on the England Golf workshops. Par didn't feature on any of the things that impact on the rating measurements
phoboter
New member
Yellow tees will do it. If you check the same courses white tees they'll likely be closer to or over the par.
For me 12 courses I've played this year are over the par - I always play the back tees and as stated, only enter opens with these high ratings.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
I don’t think I have ever made a call about playing on a course depending on its CR , I don’t think I even bother checking makes no odds and won’t change any enjoyment
doublebogey7
Head Pro
It would not re rated as nothing has changed that would cause the rating to change. To put in plainly the Course Rating takes no account of the course or individual pars on a course.
D-S
Well-known member
This is wrong. Actually pars of some courses may well change over the years as clubs are now encouraged to have one par of all courses for each gender - this was an update that happened April 2024 called 'Standardisation of Par'. This means that courses no longer have to stick to the old strictures that a par 3 has to be below 275 yards or a par 5 more than 475 yards etc.etc. Only one tee set needs to stick to these strictures - other tee sets may well have many gholes that no longer fir the old rules.
So this year for example we have rated courses that have 500 yard plus par 4s and other tee sets with 300 yard par 5s.
This means that the relation of par to CR can be very different and as such is not a good measure of difficulty at all
rulefan
Tour Winner
Par has no place in Course Rating. I don't remember it even being mentioned in the manual.
AussieKB
Well-known member
The two courses I am a member of out here are both par 72, one's CR is 71 and the other's CR 70.
The CR 70 is over 120 yards longer and a lot tougher then the other.
Very rarely do I have one of my best 8 scores on the CR 70
Just checked and I have 2, (very unusual) and 5 at the other and 1 away, I play both courses at least once a week, there have been long stretches on not having 1 score, but it helps to keep my handicap up.
The CR 70 is over 120 yards longer and a lot tougher then the other.
Very rarely do I have one of my best 8 scores on the CR 70
Just checked and I have 2, (very unusual) and 5 at the other and 1 away, I play both courses at least once a week, there have been long stretches on not having 1 score, but it helps to keep my handicap up.
cliveb
Head Pro
I wouldn't avoid playing a course because it has a low CR.
But I sort of see the point being made. My home club is par 69. CR/SR is 69.7/121 off the whites, 68.4/119 off the yellows. But apart from two holes where the tee shot is somewhat more intimidating off the whites, there's precious little difference in what you're likely to score. So I prefer to play qualifiers from the whites, as it gives a lower score differential.
But I sort of see the point being made. My home club is par 69. CR/SR is 69.7/121 off the whites, 68.4/119 off the yellows. But apart from two holes where the tee shot is somewhat more intimidating off the whites, there's precious little difference in what you're likely to score. So I prefer to play qualifiers from the whites, as it gives a lower score differential.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I suppose each course needs to be gauged on its set up etc
At home club I'd 'lose' 2 shots by teeing forward but there's near 400 yards diff and for my game about an 8 shot difference in playability so its no-brainer to go forward when permitted even though the CR changes by 2
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
Tbf this comment is more telling than some others as you're a pretty low index.. you actually have something to protect* and still don't consider these things - probably the right stance to take! Back your ability to play good golf anywhere!
*I'm not suggesting you actively protect your handicap! Just that you're low and I'm sure wont want it going up!
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
My handicap is what it is - if it goes up oh well , if it goes down - great
Whilst I’m chuffed it’s low it’s not something that ever defines golf
My course CR is one below par - doesn’t really bother me - find the course harder than some courses nearby that have CR above par
Just put your score in and let the system deal with it
Avoiding courses based on CR seems silly
Swango1980
Well-known member
Ultimately, if you have two courses of Par 72, but Course A has a CR of 69 and Course B has a CR of 74, then Course A is going to be a lot easier to shoot a lower overall score on, generally. Course A may have very few long holes relative to their par, perhaps a couple of Par 5's around 480 yards, a few 300 yardish Par 4's (or even less) and short Par 3's. Meanwhile, Course B may have longer Par 5's, very few short Par 4's but a good number of Par 4's well in excess of 400 yards, and some Par 3's hitting 200 yards.
So, for someone to just look at a scorecard and compare CR to Par, and then decide on that whether they will play there or not is an odd approach.
There is no evidence that CR is less acceptable as soon as it goes under Par. A CR of 69 or a CR of 74 are both determined using the same methodology. And Par does not come into that equation. Whish is the point I was making earlier. If the people in charge of the courses made no physical changes, but changed the Pars only, than perhaps they could make Course A a Par 68 course and Course B a Par 75 course. Would the person who doesn't play courses where CR is under Par suddenly flip their choice in which course they'd rather play?
If I was genuinely concerned about my score compared to handicap, then I'd at least want to know a lot more information. Does the general layout of the course suit my style of play? There will be a few generally difficult courses I could do really well on, there could be a few easy courses I could really struggle on. If I was bothered, I'd prefer a course that favoured a draw. I'd want a course with greens that are not really raised, as I've very good at chipping, but poor at pitching higher shots. Everyone will have their own strengths and weakness that, when looking at it individually, will make it appear the CR is wrong when comparing courses. But, if you threw all golfers scores in the mix, you'd like to think that scores start to reflect the Ratings.
So, for someone to just look at a scorecard and compare CR to Par, and then decide on that whether they will play there or not is an odd approach.
There is no evidence that CR is less acceptable as soon as it goes under Par. A CR of 69 or a CR of 74 are both determined using the same methodology. And Par does not come into that equation. Whish is the point I was making earlier. If the people in charge of the courses made no physical changes, but changed the Pars only, than perhaps they could make Course A a Par 68 course and Course B a Par 75 course. Would the person who doesn't play courses where CR is under Par suddenly flip their choice in which course they'd rather play?
If I was genuinely concerned about my score compared to handicap, then I'd at least want to know a lot more information. Does the general layout of the course suit my style of play? There will be a few generally difficult courses I could do really well on, there could be a few easy courses I could really struggle on. If I was bothered, I'd prefer a course that favoured a draw. I'd want a course with greens that are not really raised, as I've very good at chipping, but poor at pitching higher shots. Everyone will have their own strengths and weakness that, when looking at it individually, will make it appear the CR is wrong when comparing courses. But, if you threw all golfers scores in the mix, you'd like to think that scores start to reflect the Ratings.
CountLippe
Active member
If you want a lower handicap play links courses in summer when the ground is firm and wind is down. IMO they are rated too high. Yes they're tough when the wind is up, but this is pretty rare in July/ August.
LincolnShep
Head Pro
CR has no bearing when I'm selecting a course to visit - but it will be a factor the next time I choose a club to join.
The club I've been at for the past couple of years is a short course with a very low CR and slope. CR is 3.6 shots below par (68) from the yellows and 2.7 shots below from the whites - slope is 106, which is the lowest I've ever seen. It means, off my index of 17, I get 12/13 shots depending on the tees. My scores there have been awful. 12/13 shots isn't enough for me to ever play to par. The fact that the course is short doesn't make it significantly easier (for me). My index, if I only counted scores at my home club, would be 24 - seven shots higher than it is from a basket of courses.
The club I've been at for the past couple of years is a short course with a very low CR and slope. CR is 3.6 shots below par (68) from the yellows and 2.7 shots below from the whites - slope is 106, which is the lowest I've ever seen. It means, off my index of 17, I get 12/13 shots depending on the tees. My scores there have been awful. 12/13 shots isn't enough for me to ever play to par. The fact that the course is short doesn't make it significantly easier (for me). My index, if I only counted scores at my home club, would be 24 - seven shots higher than it is from a basket of courses.
