Course Rating

louise_a said:
Our course was re rated a couple of years ago, both CR and SR were reduced, which meant that most peoples handicaps went up, the Club did query the changes and were told that there would not be a rerating until 2027.

So far this year, one of our ladies would a Manchester & District singles trophy, one pair won a M&D past captains competition, In a county foursomes competition in the regional final one of our pairs won, the other two pairs both qualified for the county final, all 3 teams won their respective shield groups, We won our regions interclub competition. As well as the ladies our junior team is into the last 16 of a National Junior competition.

Yes, we are competitive but it does tend to point to our ratings helping us considerably.
Click to expand...
Or your old SSS was wrong.
What was your SSS prior the two course ratings?
 
tobybarker said:
We held a prestigious scratch tournament here this week and the visitors were beaten to a pulp by our course which is rated as quite easy by the system. The maths and the reality just don't match up.
Click to expand...
Is the course set up as it would normally be for members ? That rough just off the greens was a killer . On Friday I played a 80 yard chip onto the 6th from the middle plateau never to be seen again ( blind shot for me and my partner) and that is some of the better rough around that hole .
 
I posted in this thread a few months ago about my concerns that course ratings were quite often incorrect.

One effect my view has had is that I now partly choose where to play based on the CR, and avoid courses with a low CR, with a CR under the par my cut off.

I recently moved to a new club and I must admit, part of the reason was their high course rating for the area. I feel this means my good rounds are rewarded 'more' with a lower score index, and will drop my handicap compared to playing my old lower CR course (for reference both par 72, CR 73 vs 70.3).

I often joke that no one talks about the easiest way to lower your handicap...just join a club with a high CR. Although joking aside.. i understand this 'strategy' is well known in junior golf.

I also find I'm not entering events where that competition set of tees are rated lower. I find myself emailing the organisers to check which tees we'll be playing from, and avoid entering if they use the tees that put the CR under the par. In particular I grew tired of playing tees only 10-15 yards forward but getting 2-3 less shots. This felt like I couldn't be competitive in the competition, and even a good score wasn't 'that good' because of the lower score index.

Potentially all this stems from a fixation on lowering my handicap (probably true). But I still think its an interesting example of how CR may be hurting courses. Interested to get peoples thoughts?
 
phoboter said:
I posted in this thread a few months ago about my concerns that course ratings were quite often incorrect.

One effect my view has had is that I now partly choose where to play based on the CR, and avoid courses with a low CR, with a CR under the par my cut off.

I recently moved to a new club and I must admit, part of the reason was their high course rating for the area. I feel this means my good rounds are rewarded 'more' with a lower score index, and will drop my handicap compared to playing my old lower CR course (for reference both par 72, CR 73 vs 70.3).

I often joke that no one talks about the easiest way to lower your handicap...just join a club with a high CR. Although joking aside.. i understand this 'strategy' is well known in junior golf.

I also find I'm not entering events where that competition set of tees are rated lower. I find myself emailing the organisers to check which tees we'll be playing from, and avoid entering if they use the tees that put the CR under the par. In particular I grew tired of playing tees only 10-15 yards forward but getting 2-3 less shots. This felt like I couldn't be competitive in the competition, and even a good score wasn't 'that good' because of the lower score index.

Potentially all this stems from a fixation on lowering my handicap (probably true). But I still think its an interesting example of how CR may be hurting courses. Interested to get peoples thoughts?
Click to expand...

There is an issue somewhere, but its never going to be easy to make a system that works everywhere.

My old clubs CR was below Par - and it was an easy place to play - you could get a low handicap index by going round in about 6/7 over par and it was pretty easy for a mid handicapper to do that on any given day if it all clicked. Many comps are won there by people going pretty far under their handicap.

I got down to 11.1 at one point playing there - but id never play close to that anywhere else. Id be more like a 16-18 handicap.

It shows in club matches too, they get smashed home and away in every fixture they play. Handicaps from there travel poorly and people go there and get extra shots in matches... its all broken.

I've now changed course and my handicap has settled where I deem it to be close to accurate - around 14. (been back to the old place once since and shot 10 over par though)
 
Comments like those above make a mockery of the system. The point of the system is to make it a level playing field, but it clearly is not.

A course near me, Gifford, has very quick and slopey greens, the CR and slope does not reflect this.

Impact of weather is not properly taken into account either. I would like the wind conditions to be included in PCC automatically.
 
phoboter said:
I posted in this thread a few months ago about my concerns that course ratings were quite often incorrect.

One effect my view has had is that I now partly choose where to play based on the CR, and avoid courses with a low CR, with a CR under the par my cut off.

I recently moved to a new club and I must admit, part of the reason was their high course rating for the area. I feel this means my good rounds are rewarded 'more' with a lower score index, and will drop my handicap compared to playing my old lower CR course (for reference both par 72, CR 73 vs 70.3).

I often joke that no one talks about the easiest way to lower your handicap...just join a club with a high CR. Although joking aside.. i understand this 'strategy' is well known in junior golf.

I also find I'm not entering events where that competition set of tees are rated lower. I find myself emailing the organisers to check which tees we'll be playing from, and avoid entering if they use the tees that put the CR under the par. In particular I grew tired of playing tees only 10-15 yards forward but getting 2-3 less shots. This felt like I couldn't be competitive in the competition, and even a good score wasn't 'that good' because of the lower score index.

Potentially all this stems from a fixation on lowering my handicap (probably true). But I still think its an interesting example of how CR may be hurting courses. Interested to get peoples thoughts?
Click to expand...
That's a strange take on selecting where to play golf. I'd say most of the courses I play, CR is usually a bit under par at the least.

It would mean that you wouldn't play a course with two or three 480 yard Par 5's, and perhaps a 230 yard Par 4, assuming Par was more than CR.. However, had the Club simply set them as Par 4's and a Par 3 respectively, thus moving Par below CR (which remains exactly the same), then you'd change your mind and would play there.
 
phoboter said:
I posted in this thread a few months ago about my concerns that course ratings were quite often incorrect.

One effect my view has had is that I now partly choose where to play based on the CR, and avoid courses with a low CR, with a CR under the par my cut off.

I recently moved to a new club and I must admit, part of the reason was their high course rating for the area. I feel this means my good rounds are rewarded 'more' with a lower score index, and will drop my handicap compared to playing my old lower CR course (for reference both par 72, CR 73 vs 70.3).

I often joke that no one talks about the easiest way to lower your handicap...just join a club with a high CR. Although joking aside.. i understand this 'strategy' is well known in junior golf.

I also find I'm not entering events where that competition set of tees are rated lower. I find myself emailing the organisers to check which tees we'll be playing from, and avoid entering if they use the tees that put the CR under the par. In particular I grew tired of playing tees only 10-15 yards forward but getting 2-3 less shots. This felt like I couldn't be competitive in the competition, and even a good score wasn't 'that good' because of the lower score index.

Potentially all this stems from a fixation on lowering my handicap (probably true). But I still think its an interesting example of how CR may be hurting courses. Interested to get peoples thoughts?
Click to expand...
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here. But I wouldn't let it affect my decision-making that much. I know that my index would be a shot or two lower if it wasn't for my home club's stupidly low course rating - but I still love the club, enjoy playing there and we have a great bunch of members. Which are more important than what my index says. Plus, I know I can go to away courses and generally make a good score, which is a nice feeling I must admit. I often put scorecards in at those courses as well so I can get my handicap down a bit - even if it does harm me slightly in my home comps. I suppose the only way I'm similar to you, is that if I'm playing an away course that also has a low rating, I'm probably not going to put a card in.


Bdill93 said:
My old clubs CR was below Par - and it was an easy place to play - you could get a low handicap index by going round in about 6/7 over par and it was pretty easy for a mid handicapper to do that on any given day if it all clicked. Many comps are won there by people going pretty far under their handicap.

I got down to 11.1 at one point playing there - but id never play close to that anywhere else. Id be more like a 16-18 handicap.

It shows in club matches too, they get smashed home and away in every fixture they play. Handicaps from there travel poorly and people go there and get extra shots in matches... its all broken.
Click to expand...
Ours is the opposite to this. Everyone's indexes are a little higher than they should be, and we regularly win matches and competitions because of it.
 
Swango1980 said:
That's a strange take on selecting where to play golf. I'd say most of the courses I play, CR is usually a bit under par at the least.

It would mean that you wouldn't play a course with two or three 480 yard Par 5's, and perhaps a 230 yard Par 4, assuming Par was more than CR.. However, had the Club simply set them as Par 4's and a Par 3 respectively, thus moving Par below CR (which remains exactly the same), then you'd change your mind and would play there.
Click to expand...
I mean if this was known to be an amazing course, I wouldn't turn down the opportunity.

But would I go to the effort to pay their open competition entry fee and commit the time and fuel to get there...if it's a low CR, then sadly I wouldn't.
 
I sometimes believe that golfers focus so much on Course Rating being wrong, when the reality is that it is actually Par that is the most variable factor between courses. Somebody may see a Par 72 course with a CR of 70.5, and think "CR is far too low, it is a tough course". But, if the exact same course was Par 69 with a CR of 70.5, then at least some of those golfers would say "yeah, tough course, and that is shown with a CR higher than Par"

I don't measure ratings. But, I assume the process used to measure Course and Bogey Ratings at ALL courses is the same. They don't care about Par when doing the ratings? And, because subjectivity is not used, these should be remarkably consistent, unless someone has made a mess up with their calculations along the way (and I'm sure they are audited).

The other issue is that individual golfers have their own strengths and weaknesses. So, there will be some "easy" courses that some of us will really struggle on (whilst many others do pretty well). And there could be some "difficult" courses that some of us love playing and do well, whereas it is carnage for many other golfers.
 
phoboter said:
I mean if this was known to be an amazing course, I wouldn't turn down the opportunity.

But would I go to the effort to pay their open competition entry fee and commit the time and fuel to get there...if it's a low CR, then sadly I wouldn't.
Click to expand...
What is a low CR? Do you have a particular number in your head, or is it simply relative to Par?
 
Swango1980 said:
What is a low CR? Do you have a particular number in your head, or is it simply relative to Par?
Click to expand...
For me personally I'm put off by any course / tee that has a rating under it's par (the actual par I'm not bothered by).

An example I know of would be St Augustine in Kent - CR is 66.0 / Par is 69. I would never enter an open competition or become a member here. Even if the course was incredible, as a visitor I know I'm unlikely to compete in an open competition on a course I barely know with 3 less shots on my playing handicap, and as a member my handicap would creep up and I'd be balloted out of entry into certain events (although I'm sure away matchplay would be fun!).

I get your point above that a CR both under AND over the par could illicit the 'course is tough' response. The only change I would make is that someone talking about the 70.5/72 would say "CR is far too low, it is a tough course...to do well in a competition or achieve a counting round on".
 
phoboter said:
For me personally I'm put off by any course / tee that has a rating under it's par (the actual par I'm not bothered by).

An example I know of would be St Augustine in Kent - CR is 66.0 / Par is 69. I would never enter an open competition or become a member here. Even if the course was incredible, as a visitor I know I'm unlikely to compete in an open competition on a course I barely know with 3 less shots on my playing handicap, and as a member my handicap would creep up and I'd be balloted out of entry into certain events (although I'm sure away matchplay would be fun!).

I get your point above that a CR both under AND over the par could illicit the 'course is tough' response. The only change I would make is that someone talking about the 70.5/72 would say "CR is far too low, it is a tough course...to do well in a competition or achieve a counting round on".
Click to expand...
But the exact same course could have a Par of 70, if a couple of the Par 5's were changed to very long Par 4's
 
Swango1980 said:
But the exact same course could have a Par of 70, if a couple of the Par 5's were changed to very long Par 4's
Click to expand...
If this course had very long par 4's instead of reachable par 5's, it's rating would reflect that and would be raised. In a hypothetical world where only the par was changed, yes what I'm saying wouldn't make sense - but that world doesn't exist, the course rating system is there to account for this. Unless I have misunderstood the point you're trying to make, can you expand if I have?
 
phoboter said:
If this course had very long par 4's instead of reachable par 5's, it's rating would reflect that and would be raised. In a hypothetical world where only the par was changed, yes what I'm saying wouldn't make sense - but that world doesn't exist, the course rating system is there to account for this. Unless I have misunderstood the point you're trying to make, can you expand if I have?
Click to expand...
No it wouldn't. It would be the exact same course. The scorecard would just have different Pars
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Orikoru
Why can't slope ratings be more fluid?
4 5 6
Replies
105
Views
2K
mikejohnchapman
mikejohnchapman
J
  • Poll Poll
Golf membership swap
2 3
Replies
59
Views
4K
SwingsitlikeHogan
SwingsitlikeHogan
C
OOB White Stakes surrounding GK's sheds.
Replies
7
Views
1K
Cliomorgan
C
Tashyboy
Golf. It’s not a fullfilling life.
2
Replies
39
Views
3K
kp17
kp17
LincolnShep
I've had the round of my life but I'm baffled by the handicap cut...
Replies
3
Views
559
SwingsitlikeHogan
SwingsitlikeHogan
Top