Course Rating

PJ87 said:
Thank you. Now makes sense. However the issue then becomes because slope is defined in the score diff then you have a flaw in the system.. because yes if playing at the same course it works but playing away it doesn't fully. You go to those other courses with higher slopes and suddenly it's a lower score diff because of the rating

So what I'm really saying is whilst the slope may be correct , using it to determine your score diff adds a layer of incorrect data.

Every single season my handicap gets cut and my 8 best rounds include whatever courses I've played on a society because their slope is higher.

That's what I'm saying the slope being used to calculate your score diff is flawed




Once they have re rated they won't return for 5 years . Was only done last year

As said above the issue is using it to calculate the score diff

Also there could be the case that the other courses have been rated too high but never questioned it so if they returned would probably be lowered ...
Click to expand...
A higher slope at Course B compared to Course A does not automatically mean a lower score diff at Course A, when shooting same score.

It depends on CR
 
rulefan said:
PJ87

You seem to be making the wrong comparison. You are comparing CR with Slope but the key is really the Bogey Rating (BR) itself.
Compare all your club's scratch players' gross scores with the CR. Compare all your club's bogey players' gross scores with the BR.
Slope is simply a scaling device to enable the handicap system to work for players with any handicap.
Click to expand...

I appreciate this, the problem is because it's used in score diffs it hinders improvement

I hit low 90s at my club and until I can hit 89 off the whites on a regular basis the index won't be off 18

Which is why I've switched to black tees because a score in the 90s will get that 18 index ...

22 shots off whites and 27 off blacks I wouldn't say the course is 5 shots harder between the tees is the issue I have with the slope ratings as it is but there we go
 
Swango1980 said:
A higher slope at Course B compared to Course A does not automatically mean a lower score diff at Course A, when shooting same score.

It depends on CR
Click to expand...

Thing is course ratings are normally very near par .. within a few shots so have much less effect on score diff than slope
.
 
PJ87 said:
Until somebody plays the course the issue can't be fully understood though,because it's just being based on the "manual" it's not being based on the course in front

Watch the video.
Click to expand...

I have played the course twice and find the CR and slope fine - as I said I found it easier than my home course

There weren’t too many hazards that caused trouble , you have to be very wild offline to be in a lot of trouble , there weren’t too many issues at the landing points and too many dangers going into greens

Greens were the tricky part
 
PJ87 said:
1) It's not tho is it. 111 is not reflecting the difficulty faced for a bogey golfer

2) Again another approach. The use of slope to work out score diff is flawed. By all means allow it to be used for course handicap but by using 113/ sr to calculate the score diff adds a flaw ..

3) If you read through my examples where traveling away from a tougher courses to easier courses (based on course rating) I'm getting more shots and all the score diff are worth more because the slope being involved
Click to expand...
1) Perhaps you should read what I said on that subject.
2) Without the SR in the SD handicap indexes would not be comparable from one club/course to another and we would be back to where we were before WHS.
3) Makes no sense
 
Arthur Wedge said:
I have played the course twice and find the CR and slope fine - as I said I found it easier than my home course

There weren’t too many hazards that caused trouble , you have to be very wild offline to be in a lot of trouble , there weren’t too many issues at the landing points and too many dangers going into greens

Greens were the tricky part
Click to expand...

The thing is Phil you are a scratch (I believe) golfer. Well single figures definitely. So your experience can't relate to a bogey golfer because you have the distance, control and skill to navigate the trouble without costing shots.

As a bogey golfer who is average off the tee distance wise (top 240) i find the slope rating hinders

Was the wind up the time you played? The course changes from day to day with the wind
 
doublebogey7 said:
1) Perhaps you should read what I said on that subject.
2) Without the SR in the SD handicap indexes would not be comparable from one club/course to another and we would be back to where we were before WHS.
3) Makes no sense
Click to expand...

They would be different because it would be based on course rating

So using my same example

Hit 90 both courses

Just using course ratings

90-71.8 (score diff of 18.2)

90 - 70.9 (score diff of 19.1)

So you would see a change between the two without the slope being used..

Once you throw slope in those score diffs become 18.5 .. and then 15.7!!! Which is frankly ridiculous
 
PJ87 said:
Thank you clive. Another voice of reason

The "bogey golfer" definition doesn't provide a good reflection of a bogey golfer "normally short but straight off the tee" was thrown about. Well that's not true is it..you see all kinds of bogey golfers. Some who have distance but can't control it, some who are short but straight and some who are just average ...

Considering the complaints that have been thrown at whs (which I have been a huge fan of) people still don't seem to want to listen to people who have taken the time to read into whs and ratings instead of just moaning and finding it inconsistent and flawed but apparently it's right because the manual says so

Maybe the manual is flawed? I mean it's all made up isn't it... Somebody sat down and made it all up. What's to say it's correct
Click to expand...
They did not simply make it up, slope ratings have been used in ther rest of the world for a long time and must research has taken place over the years to determine what makes the average scratch and bogey player. . However they are not perfect and never could be, there are always going to be courses that suit some type of golfer more than another. We see that in the pro game so no reason to suspect that won't be the case in the amateur game.
 
doublebogey7 said:
They did not simply make it up, slope ratings have been used in ther rest of the world for a long time and must research has taken place over the years to determine what makes the average scratch and bogey player. . However they are not perfect and never could be, there are always going to be courses that suit some type of golfer more than another. We see that in the pro game so no reason to suspect that won't be the case in the amateur game.
Click to expand...

My main gripe isn't that the slope is wrong it's wrongly applied to score diff

Hell when whs came in we didn't even use CR to take into account
 
D-S said:
Two final points.
1 - 5 years is a bit optimistic, courses need to be rated every 10 years. Due to the need to get them all done pre WHS and not wanting to have to rate all the courses again in a short period of time, some courses have been rated the first two times in quickish succession. I would expect the next regular rating to be much closer to 10 years since the last one.
Click to expand...
Are there any exceptions to this though, like if a course is redesigned, a hole changed etc? Surely it would need to be re-rated then.
 
Imurg said:
I don't really get what you want.....
The course has been rated..twice....by people who know how to rate courses.
Both times the rating/slope has come e out lower than the rating/slope you want....
As all courses are rated using the same process your imp,cation is that every course has been incorrectly rated.....do you honestly believe that?
If you do then I wouldn't waste time on here...I'd be on to the Authorities to get them to come back and rate it again...
And it'll probably be no different...
Click to expand...
It was different though .
If they came back and made it lower .
Why did they get it wrong the first time if it’s so exact.?
 
clubchamp98 said:
It was different though .
If they came back and made it lower .
Why did they get it wrong the first time if it’s so exact.?
Click to expand...

Exactly, we were originally 117 which was a much better reflection

What did that first course rater deem harder than the second
 
clubchamp98 said:
It was different though .
If they came back and made it lower .
Why did they get it wrong the first time if it’s so exact.?
Click to expand...

Different eyes , maybe different time of the year, small changes

The drop in slope wasn’t too much

The course raters will see a lot of courses and know what they are looking for

I walked with one at our place and one locally and very similar but you could see why it was rated little higher even though I find it easier to play
 
clubchamp98 said:
It was different though .
If they came back and made it lower .
Why did they get it wrong the first time if it’s so exact.?
Click to expand...
You posted the reason a few years ago:
clubchamp98 said:
That might be nearer the truth than you think.
My course was one of the hardest you could play a few years ago.
But now they just cut all the rough down ( pace of play)
The scores are just silly now .
You can hit a 3 wood out of rough that you would struggle to find your ball in a few years ago.
Being straight and hitting fairways isn’t necessary any more.
Click to expand...
 
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