Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[Ethan]

I have explained something, try to keep up.
I said its unreasonable to suggest the government cannot digress fiscally from their manifesto due to he Corona virus pandemic and I stand by that but if they want to keep to their manifesto then that's something for them to figure out.

Well, the question of whether they can actually pull off this pledge is probably uncontroversial, and I doubt even Rishi Sunak thinks they can, so the question which I thought we were debating was whether it was politically responsible or wise to stick by it, as well as a wider question of politicians sticking to promises because adapting is seen as weak. But you don't seem to care about any of that because "that's something for them to figure out", so I look forward to seeing you apply the same uncritical ambivalence to a range of other political questions. It's OK to criticise the Govt when it is deserved, you know. They won't kick you out of the True Blue club for a first offence.

 

[SocketRocket]

Well, the question of whether they can actually pull off this pledge is probably uncontroversial, and I doubt even Rishi Sunak thinks they can, so the question which I thought we were debating was whether it was politically responsible or wise to stick by it, as well as a wider question of politicians sticking to promises because adapting is seen as weak. But you don't seem to care about any of that because "that's something for them to figure out", so I look forward to seeing you apply the same uncritical ambivalence to a range of other political questions. It's OK to criticise the Govt when it is deserved, you know. They won't kick you out of the True Blue club for a first offence.

Your point is unreasonable, it's like a man laid in a hospital bed after being struck by lightening and his wife stood by him complaining that he had promised to take her out to dinner but hasnt apologised yet.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I wonder why, in this case, you haven't jumped in to accuse the government of a "U turn". For which you have "previous" -
Haven't you missed an opportunity to slag off Johnson and Co?
You're slipping?

It is indeed yet another u-turn. A Governments that continues to make u-turns - sometimes days after promising no change of direction - suggest lack of clear direction in that government. Meanwhile pilot in chief to provide the clear direction has been absent.

 

[Ethan]

Your point is unreasonable, it's like a man laid in a hospital bed after being struck by lightening and his wife stood by him complaining that he had promised to take her out to dinner but hasnt apologised yet.

I think you are losing it. Perhaps lost it. OK, let's leave it there, since you are unwilling or unable to actually debate the issue.

 

[Hobbit]

It is indeed yet another u-turn. A Governments that continues to make u-turns - sometimes days after promising no change of direction - suggest lack of clear direction in that government. Meanwhile pilot in chief to provide the clear direction has been absent.

Or a govt that is flexible and responsive. Depends how you spin it.

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

 

[Ethan]

Or a govt that is flexible and responsive. Depends how you spin it.

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

Well, the problem is not that the media and public castigate them for changing their minds, it is that they make themselves hostages to fortune with boldly stated promises which are often unrealistic even in normal times, and then usually reaffirm their commitment even after it is obvious it is untenable, then only change when forced to do so. They deserve to get a kicking for that.

If politicians treated the public as the responsible adults they always claim the public are, and said that there are difficult choices to make, this is what they have chosen and why, but also that if circumstances change significantly, the policy may have to be reconsidered, then in terms of Covid, taxes or triple lock pensions, I think most reasonable people would be OK with that.

 

[drdel]

It is indeed yet another u-turn. A Governments that continues to make u-turns - sometimes days after promising no change of direction - suggest lack of clear direction in that government. Meanwhile pilot in chief to provide the clear direction has been absent.

He is entitled to a holiday, the UK is not a dictatorship not do we have an Emporer: there are Ministers in charge!

He didn't fly off to an expensive destination but simply went for a break in the Highlands without any fuss. You would find fault with anything and everything, whether relevant to addressing the issues around the virus or not.

 

[SocketRocket]

I think you are losing it. Perhaps lost it. OK, let's leave it there, since you are unwilling or unable to actually debate the issue.

I guess your version of debate the issue is to either keep repeating the same belief or to accept your version, I have no intention of doing either so 'yes' you could say I've lost it in that respect.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

He is entitled to a holiday, the UK is not a dictatorship not do we have an Emporer: there are Ministers in charge!

He didn't fly off to an expensive destination but simply we for a break in the Highlands without any fuss. You would find fault with anything and everything, whether relevant to addressing the issues around the virus or not.

It’s as if thoughts on where the prime minister is through the exams mess is something that only I have commented upon. If I am finding fault then I am not alone...yet the accusation is that I am somehow out on a limb with any such thoughts.

 

[Ethan]

I guess your version of debate the issue is to either keep repeating the same belief or to accept your version, I have no intention of doing either so 'yes' you could say I've lost it in that respect.

My version of debate is to say something about the topic. You still haven’t actually commented on whether Johnson should have recommitted to the pledge. I will assume that you are just an unthinking loyalist.

 

[drdel]

It’s as if thoughts on where the prime minister is through the exams mess is something that only I have commented upon. If I am finding fault then I am not alone...

OK, but the personalisation of everything when we have a full Cabinet form of government is plainly silly. It is just lazily swallowing and pandering to the media and press who just want to put out a name to blame to fill the page and airwaves with sensationalism.

 

[SocketRocket]

My version of debate is to say something about the topic. You still haven’t actually commented on whether Johnson should have recommitted to the pledge. I will assume that you are just an unthinking loyalist.

How can he be held to a manifesto pledge when the whole world has been through an ecconomic mincer. Surely even you must realise that.

I have explained something, try to keep up.
I said its unreasonable to suggest the government cannot digress fiscally from their manifesto due to he Corona virus pandemic and I stand by that but if they want to keep to their manifesto then that's something for them to figure out.

I guess your version of debate the issue is to either keep repeating the same belief or to accept your version, I have no intention of doing either so 'yes' you could say I've lost it in that respect.

Try re-reading my comments, you will see that I have made my view clear enough on the Conservative manifesto and how recent events have changed the economic situation to a degree that it would be unreasonable to to hold the government to account over its previous fiscal policy. I also explained that if they decide not to increase tax or NI then it's for them to show how they will do this.

If you cannot understand what I have said then I'm sorry but I cant say it any plainer so you are either being obtuse or stupid. I suggest the former.

 

[Ethan]

Try re-reading my comments, you will see that I have made my view clear enough on the Conservative manifesto and how recent events have changed the economic situation to a degree that it would be unreasonable to to hold the government to account over its previous fiscal policy. I also explained that if they decide not to increase tax or NI then it's for them to show how they will do this.

If you cannot understand what I have said then I'm sorry but I cant say it any plainer so you are either being obtuse or stupid. I suggest the former.

I understand exactly what you are saying but we are not debating whether it is possible to maintain the fricking pledge or not. I am trying to make the point that despite all the evidence that it is impossible to fix the balance sheet through growth alone, especially with the additional unnecessary insult of Brexit, Johnson and other Cabinet Ministers have doubled down and reaffirmed their pledge. I have repeatedly asked you what you think of that political act, but you have just repeated that you have made your point clear on the issue on which we already agree.

So, what do you think of the political wisdom of reaffirming that pledge, and are there any other economic options you would prefer?

 

[Ethan]

OK, but the personalisation of everything when we have a full Cabinet form of government is plainly silly. It is just lazily swallowing and pandering to the media and press who just want to put out a name to blame to fill the page and airwaves with sensationalism.

Yeah, but we clearly don't have a Cabinet Govt in reality. We have a quasi-Presidential form. Looks at the political paralysis, not that it is necessarily a bad thing, when Johnson was hiding away in St. Thomas' and when he is on holiday.

He also likes to dodge Parliament as much as possible too.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

OK, but the personalisation of everything when we have a full Cabinet form of government is plainly silly. It is just lazily swallowing and pandering to the media and press who just want to put out a name to blame to fill the page and airwaves with sensationalism.

We have a cabinet of ministers who have sworn an oath of loyalty to Johnson as demanded by Cummings. As many commentators have pointed out this does not mean the current cabinet are up to their job - and it most probably means that they will not make any significant decision without the OK from Johnson. Those who refused to swear the oath of loyalty or refuse to toe-the-line are nowhere to be seen. Indeed Williamson has said that he had spoken to the PM and he had approved the decision to U-turn on A-levels. Besides - plenty of folks have cancelled holidays or had to return early from them if the circumstances demanded it. But not our PM.

 

[drdel]

We have a cabinet of ministers who have sworn an oath of loyalty to Johnson as demanded by Cummings. As many commentators have pointed out this does not mean the current cabinet are up to their job - and it most probably means that they will not make any significant decision without the OK from Johnson. Those who refused to swear the oath of loyalty or refuse to toe-the-line are nowhere to be seen. Indeed Williamson has said that he had spoken to the PM and he had approved the decision to U-turn on A-levels. Besides - plenty of folks have cancelled holidays or had to return early from them if the circumstances demanded it. But not our PM.

It would seem you accept the media portrayed view of politicians, especially anyone in Government.

I have a strong suspicion that there is absolutely nobody that would measure up to your standards which rather makes any debate about politicians with you a waste of time.

 

[SocketRocket]

I understand exactly what you are saying but we are not debating whether it is possible to maintain the fricking pledge or not. I am trying to make the point that despite all the evidence that it is impossible to fix the balance sheet through growth alone, especially with the additional unnecessary insult of Brexit, Johnson and other Cabinet Ministers have doubled down and reaffirmed their pledge. I have repeatedly asked you what you think of that political act, but you have just repeated that you have made your point clear on the issue on which we already agree.

So, what do you think of the political wisdom of reaffirming that pledge, and are there any other economic options you would prefer?

When you say 'The Pledge' I assume you are referring to the Conservatives manifesto where they will not increase tax thresholds for national insurance rates. How many times must I repeat that for me it would be quite reasonable to increase them but if the government decide not to then they will need to show what measures they will use to reduce the increased defecit. I am not in a position of making that decision for them.

You keep mentioning the Governments reaffirmation that they will not increase tax thresholds or Ni levels, can you show where they have stated this?

 

[SocketRocket]

It would seem you accept the media portrayed view of politicians, especially anyone in Government.

I have a strong suspicion that there is absolutely nobody that would measure up to your standards which rather makes any debate about politicians with you a waste of time.

If there were a change of Government then I think his standards would adjust.

 

[Ethan]

When you say 'The Pledge' I assume you are referring to the Conservatives manifesto where they will not increase tax thresholds for national insurance rates. How many times must I repeat that for me it would be quite reasonable to increase them but if the government decide not to then they will need to show what measures they will use to reduce the increased defecit. I am not in a position of making that decision for them.

You keep mentioning the Governments reaffirmation that they will not increase tax thresholds or Ni levels, can you show where they have stated this?

Sigh. I knew you do not make that decision for the Govt. OK, then don't comment further on the politics then until you join the Cabinet. I am not in the Cabinet either, but I think it is bad politics to keep making promises you can't keep, and which you know you can't keep. That includes this and the great imaginary Brexit future. A strong and capable leader would be shifting the message towards the realistic.

The manifesto pledge was for income tax, NI and VAT. Hardly need to scroll

I will assume you now also object to debates on the rules of golf unless the people concerned are on the R&A Rules Committee, or the merits of golf courses unless they are designers?

 

[SocketRocket]

Sigh. I knew you do not make that decision for the Govt. OK, then don't comment further on the politics then until you join the Cabinet. I am not in the Cabinet either, but I think it is bad politics to keep making promises you can't keep, and which you know you can't keep. That includes this and the great imaginary Brexit future. A strong and capable leader would be shifting the message towards the realistic.

The manifesto pledge was for income tax, NI and VAT. Hardly need to scroll

I will assume you now also object to debates on the rules of golf unless the people concerned are on the R&A Rules Committee, or the merits of golf courses unless they are designers?

"Big Sigh"
You really are the master of prevarication, never mind Brexit theres another thread for that but I guess in your 'lack of balance' world everything is a Brexit issue.

I asked you to show where the Government have reafirmed their pledge not to increase tax thresholds or Ni, maybe you can show me where they have said this recently, the 2019 manifesto is not recently.