Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[GB72]

A number of universtities are restricting the number of deferrments as they were receiving so many requests for it. Due to covid the year is not going to be what a lot were hoping for so the rush to defer has been big. The worry you mention is a very real one and hopefully this has been addressed. It will though affect next years intake no matter as there are bound tobe more deferrments than usual, meaning less spaces available overall for them.

This is an interesting point. I wonder if a percentage are looking to defer their place based on the social aspect of university being curtailed rather than any issues on the educational side of things. In that case I have less sympathy for those concerned.

Appreciate the issues with spaces etc but was it not only a few months ago that universities were making the case for additional funding as they were going to have a massively reduced intake of foreign students. Surely this would allow greater capacity for UK based students to fill those gaps.

Looking at this purely from a practical point of view and not making any particular political statement.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I heard that too and it makes sense but I'm not sure how much A Level grades count down the line? If you go to Uni and get a degree then I assume that grade supercedes the A Levels and down the line on a CV will be the marker of the individual. Not sure about those that leave mainstream education and whether their 3 A*s would favour them versus the 3 Bs an equally good candidate got through "fairer" means?

I think you are dead right. The moment you walk through the door at university your A levels are close to forgotten. If you leave after A levels then as soon as you start a job work experience becomes more important to the next employer. It is all just a bit raw for people at the moment.

I think what may be interesting is to look at the drop out level, failure level at university this coming year at the end of it. Will it be greater as too many went that are not actually capable of the courses they applied to or will they be okay? It has been pointed out, quite fairly imo, that this problem has been dumped onto the universities to sort out. They could be having a very tricky year, or two.

 

[Ethan]

A number of universtities are restricting the number of deferrments as they were receiving so many requests for it. Due to covid the year is not going to be what a lot were hoping for so the rush to defer has been big. The worry you mention is a very real one and hopefully this has been addressed. It will though affect next years intake no matter as there are bound tobe more deferrments than usual, meaning less spaces available overall for them.

But it is not possible to address it easily for something like Medicine where national Uni places are controlled and linked to numbers of junior hospital jobs available for those graduates. If they don't defer this year, there will be too many students. If they defer, there will be fewer places for next years A level students.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

This is an interesting point. I wonder if a percentage are looking to defer their place based on the social aspect of university being curtailed rather than any issues on the educational side of things. In that case I have less sympathy for those concerned.

Appreciate the issues with spaces etc but was it not only a few months ago that universities were making the case for additional funding as they were going to have a massively reduced intake of foreign students. Surely this would allow greater capacity for UK based students to fill those gaps.

Looking at this purely from a practical point of view and not making any particular political statement.

Going off my daughters school, she spoke to the head of 6th form a few weeks ago, it was then entirely down to the university experience being very different to what they hope it would be. They wanted to delay a year hoping that life would be back to normal.

It covers both aspects to be fair, social and teaching. I'll have two kids away this acedemic year. In the first term both will have online lectures only. They will have small tutor groups but not proper lectures as was. You will not see your whole course group together at any stage. There are a host of restrictions related to mixing. Less of an issue for my son, yr 3, but significant for my daughter yr 1. How does she make new friends? How does she find people to live with next year beyond her immediate bubble of flatmates in halls, you have to arrange that prior to Christmas to have anything decent. I don't blame anyone looking to defer.

 

[howbow88]

There's also the fact that the vast majority of unis aren't offering reductions in their fees. Uni is about more than just getting a degree.

 

[GB72]

There's also the fact that the vast majority of unis aren't offering reductions in their fees. Uni is about more than just getting a degree.

Not sure why they would need to. OK, things may have changed since my day but back then lectures were not in any way interactive and contained a number of class groups and so, on a basic level, were no different to watching the lecture online. The actual interactive teaching was carried out in tutorial groups of 6-8 people and that would work as well on zoom or socially distanced. The university still need to employ the lecturer and the tutors. Appreciate it is very different for courses that need lab time etc. For a number of subjects, however, the method of teaching for what is only likely to be the first year should have little bearing on the direct quality of the education being given. The university is only responsible for the education element, the fact that students expect a social element as well is not the fault of the university.

OK, a bit harsh I know but I would actually be intrigued to see how this panned out as a social experiment. Would you see a significant improvement in university grades if the year was conducted in lockdown conditions with no social element possible.

 

[howbow88]

I get all that. I mean it purely from a student's point of view - you pay the same amount of money, but end up with absolutely none of the fun and just the 'end product' of a degree.

If I were 18 right now and wanted to go to uni, I would absolutely try and put it off until 'normality' returns.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Jess Phillips is now suggesting that next year’s students should be graded by their teachers.

It might not be a bad solution, or at the very least include more elements of coursework/teacher assessment. Those going into the final year of GCSEs or A Levels have already lost at the very least, a term of valuable teaching, and there is not much time to catch up. It is by no means certain that schools will be kept open though the next academic year depending on what happens with the virus, so you may well get to a stage where when exams come around there will be a vast difference in terms of how much time the pupils have had to cover the curriculum.

So for next year I'd much rather see a pupils grade being given partly on exams if the majority of pupils have had a fair chance to pass them in terms of having being taught all the curriculum, but definitely include an element of teacher assessment. They should be graded on their ability, not on how much of the curriculum they have managed to be taught through no fault of their own. And the point is that we now have time to plan for that, instead of repeating the last minute debacle we have seen this year.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I'm still puzzled that it seems to be simply accepted that teachers will over estimate student grades. Not once have I heard any criticism of that - simply that it's fact. Surely they're professional people who should be accurate and trustworthy when it comes to assessing their students.

As for unreal expectations. The numbers of students requiring special measures for exams - extra time, supervised rest breaks, lap tops etc is surely only adding to that. When they hit the real world employers aren't going to accept it takes them 25% longer to do the same job, or that they need 5 minutes rest every half an hour.

Not really coronavirus as such but this current debacle shines a light on a system which for me is setting many up for failure.

Government's handling has been shocking (before my resident stalker feels the need to argue with me)...all the tools seem far too blunt and can't understand why there hasn't been a more student-based rather than school-based system. After all their papers would have all been individually marked.

Think of it like how the vast majority of experienced golfers over estimate how far their 7 iron will go. The assessments in the vast majority of cases will be fair in that pupil x on a good day would have got a B or whatever, but they will always make an assumption that the student will have a good day in the exam hall. Human nature means doing anything else is not realistic. Much like I always think my 7 iron will always go 160 yards.

 

[Ethan]

Funny that a bunch of golfers who say 'my handicap is X' when their average score does not justify it, and I hit my 7 iron 150 yards when it usually goes 140 can't see how teachers might over-rate their pupils performance.

Me included.

 

[AmandaJR]

Heard a student on the radio today. She was given 3 D's but now her teacher's grades give her 2 B's and a C. "I'm happy as my chances of getting unto a university after my gap year are improved."

Made me wonder about how fair that will be this time next year...ditto those returning from a gap year with last year's grades.

 

[AmandaJR]

Think of it like how the vast majority of experienced golfers over estimate how far their 7 iron will go. The assessments in the vast majority of cases will be fair in that pupil x on a good day would have got a B or whatever, but they will always make an assumption that the student will have a good day in the exam hall. Human nature means doing anything else is not realistic. Much like I always think my 7 iron will always go 160 yards.

Funny that a bunch of golfers who say 'my handicap is X' when their average score does not justify it, and I hit my 7 iron 150 yards when it usually goes 140 can't see how teachers might over-rate their pupils performance.

Me included.

I guess it's just me then - don't do either in terms of handicap or distance hit...maybe that's a male/female thing

 

[GB72]

The estimated grades thing does concern me somewhat. Yes teachers will give a reasonable assessment of what is possible to achieve but how much of that is based on pure, analytical fact based on grades achieved to date and how much is aspiration if they really knuckle down and work to their potential. Were the estimated grades assessed before or after it was known that exams would not be sat?

Also, to add a further golfing analogy, so far teachers have seen the pupils perform in a number of friendly rounds with mates and a couple of monthly stableford rounds. Those final exams are ramped up in pressure to the level of playing the back 9 of the club championships with a decent card in hand. You can award the grades as high or as low as you like but, and I am being honest here, if I am sat in an employment situation with 2 candidates, i am picking the one that actually sat those final exams under that pressure and that will be a problem for this year of A level students.

 

[Ethan]

I guess it's just me then - don't do either in terms of handicap or distance hit...maybe that's a male/female thing

To be fair, every handicap is an overestimate of typical performance since it is pivoted at around the 75th percentile.

 

[drdel]

The estimated grades thing does concern me somewhat. Yes teachers will give a reasonable assessment of what is possible to achieve but how much of that is based on pure, analytical fact based on grades achieved to date and how much is aspiration if they really knuckle down and work to their potential. Were the estimated grades assessed before or after it was known that exams would not be sat?

Also, to add a further golfing analogy, so far teachers have seen the pupils perform in a number of friendly rounds with mates and a couple of monthly stableford rounds. Those final exams are ramped up in pressure to the level of playing the back 9 of the club championships with a decent card in hand. You can award the grades as high or as low as you like but, and I am being honest here, if I am sat in an employment situation with 2 candidates, i am picking the one that actually sat those final exams under that pressure and that will be a problem for this year of A level students.

.
I know it might be a few decades ago but I suspect many of you will recall your school days and the teachers who had their 'pet' pupils. Blind marked nationally set exams and coursework has to be the honest way forwards. I was too interested in sports and stuff so wasn't ever one of the 'favoured' kids but that motivated me to prove them wrong and that encouraged me in a science field through Uni. the real world and a doctorate. 20 years in Industry and 20+ years as a Uni. Head of department I'm afraid my soap-box looms - the UK needs to wake up to the real world of competition rather than the artificial media/film portrayed celebrity leftist entitlement culture!

In UK Universities there are a plethora of 'easy' courses today like media studies and performing arts etc where well paid stable careers are like hens teeth, as SILH's various posts have demonstrated. Students study TV Soaps at Maters level - honestly .

We desperately need young UK kids to get to grip with the sciences to help the planet and people, in areas of biology, chemistry, computing, medicines, engineering, etc. The so-called 'vocational' studies should be taught at colleges and not clutter up Universities with a load of timewasters. The sciences may be harder but then its the harsh reality of work that needs to be the focus; unskilled jobs are being absorbed by automation, AI and robotics.

In my humble opinion, of course

 

[GB72]

.
I know it might be a few decades ago but I suspect many of you will recall your school days and the teachers who had their 'pet' pupils. Blind marked nationally set exams and coursework has to be the honest way forwards. I was too interested in sports and stuff so wasn't ever one of the 'favoured' kids but that motivated me to prove them wrong and that encouraged me in a science field through Uni. the real world and a doctorate. 20 years in Industry and 20+ years as a Uni. Head of department I'm afraid my soap-box looms - the UK needs to wake up to the real world of competition rather than the artificial media/film portrayed celebrity leftist entitlement culture!

In UK Universities there are a plethora of 'easy' courses today like media studies and performing arts etc where well paid stable careers are like hens teeth, as SILH's various posts have demonstrated. Students study TV Soaps at Maters level - honestly .

We desperately need young UK kids to get to grip with the sciences to help the planet and people, in areas of biology, chemistry, computing, medicines, engineering, etc. The so-called 'vocational' studies should be taught at colleges and not clutter up Universities with a load of timewasters. The sciences may be harder but then its the harsh reality of work that needs to be the focus; unskilled jobs are being absorbed by automation, AI and robotics.

In my humble opinion, of course

What I did see at school were 2 groups of people, there were those who excelled in the classroom (not much coursework in my day) but crumbled when it came to exams and also those who just could not get on with the day to day of school work but give them a subject and a few weeks notice and they could get through pretty much any exam (I was more of the latter). That is what estimated grades cannot take into account. The inability of one to handle the pressure of the exam room will remain hidden until later in life whereas the the ability of the other to produce a last minute spurt to achieve a goal will not be taken into account. There is no fair way of addressing this.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd have been a bit cheesed off if my O-Level French prelims and teacher assessment determined my O-Level. I couldn't be bothered learning irregular verbs and so was total rubbish in ongoing tests; and flunked my prelim. Teacher reckoned I'd do well to get a D. But I wasn't a D sort of pupil so I learned the irregulars and got an A. Was actually quite important back then as Scottish Unis liked their intake to have a good O-level in a foreign language (English didn't count as one )

 

[Ethan]

.
I know it might be a few decades ago but I suspect many of you will recall your school days and the teachers who had their 'pet' pupils. Blind marked nationally set exams and coursework has to be the honest way forwards. I was too interested in sports and stuff so wasn't ever one of the 'favoured' kids but that motivated me to prove them wrong and that encouraged me in a science field through Uni. the real world and a doctorate. 20 years in Industry and 20+ years as a Uni. Head of department I'm afraid my soap-box looms - the UK needs to wake up to the real world of competition rather than the artificial media/film portrayed celebrity leftist entitlement culture!

In UK Universities there are a plethora of 'easy' courses today like media studies and performing arts etc where well paid stable careers are like hens teeth, as SILH's various posts have demonstrated. Students study TV Soaps at Maters level - honestly .

We desperately need young UK kids to get to grip with the sciences to help the planet and people, in areas of biology, chemistry, computing, medicines, engineering, etc. The so-called 'vocational' studies should be taught at colleges and not clutter up Universities with a load of timewasters. The sciences may be harder but then its the harsh reality of work that needs to be the focus; unskilled jobs are being absorbed by automation, AI and robotics.

In my humble opinion, of course

Interesting post. Some I agree with and some I strongly disagree with.

Vocational courses are done by timewasters. Interesting. I am sure some people in vocational careers will be along shortly to discuss that.

The UK needs to waken up to competition. I agree, but then the choice to leave the powerful EU block to become an academic also-ran is an odd choice. The flight of academics and research money has long since started, and will only continue.

And what is this leftist entitlement culture - the NHS, welfare state? Dunno if you had noticed but Johnson is the most socialist PM for a generation.

 

[Hacker Khan]

The estimated grades thing does concern me somewhat. Yes teachers will give a reasonable assessment of what is possible to achieve but how much of that is based on pure, analytical fact based on grades achieved to date and how much is aspiration if they really knuckle down and work to their potential. Were the estimated grades assessed before or after it was known that exams would not be sat?

Also, to add a further golfing analogy, so far teachers have seen the pupils perform in a number of friendly rounds with mates and a couple of monthly stableford rounds. Those final exams are ramped up in pressure to the level of playing the back 9 of the club championships with a decent card in hand. You can award the grades as high or as low as you like but, and I am being honest here, if I am sat in an employment situation with 2 candidates, i am picking the one that actually sat those final exams under that pressure and that will be a problem for this year of A level students.

Kids are are given estimated GCSE grades from the moment they start primary school nowadays. It is a very thorough process, if understandably not completely standardised as it is all based on human interpretation. One could argue that seeing someone perform day in day out is actually more relevant to what they will do in most (but not all) jobs than an artificial one off knowledge recall exam situation. I'm sure you'll be aware through interviewing people that there are many other factors needed than just exam grades.

Also there's a whole debate over if pupils are being taught the skills and abilities they will need in the future world of work where some studies say future workers will go through on average about 4 different careers. The world of work has changed and that change will only accelerate in the current climate. The way kids are taught and what they are taught has not.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interesting post. Some I agree with and some I strongly disagree with.

Vocational courses are done by timewasters. Interesting. I am sure some people in vocational careers will be along shortly to discuss that.

The UK needs to waken up to competition. I agree, but then the choice to leave the powerful EU block to become an academic also-ran is an odd choice. The flight of academics and research money has long since started, and will only continue.

And what is this leftist entitlement culture - the NHS, welfare state? Dunno if you had noticed but Johnson is the most socialist PM for a generation.

Indeed - what is it - because I see a culture of entitlement that spans political leaning; social background and socio-economic groupi...

The actual entitlement might well be different - but the entitlement is there. See for example the entitlement many feel about their tax - that they are entitled to minimise what they pay in tax, and entitled to keep as much of their income as possible. Indeed. And many would add - because they are entitled to a certain standard of living. We all have feelings of entitlement...