Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[clubchamp98]

Agree, it’s not an exact science however there is still a the possibility that there will not be an anti-virus so there has to be an alternative solution as social distancing in all instances is just not feasible long term. For some industries it’s imperative that these relaxations are made imo. If you (general you rather than you specifically) feel uncomfortable with a particular solution then don’t put yourself in that position but I think we have to be given the option now.

The general public yes I would agree.
But some people will be pressured into going to work where they don’t feel safe that’s wrong imo.
What happened to listening to the science, do we have new scientists.
Seems to be possible Covid or bankruptcies that’s a very bad choice for some.

 

[Backache]

there are clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown.

I'm not sure that this is true . I haven't seen much evidence presented for any deaths caused by lockdown as opposed to the virus.

 

[Foxholer]

...there are clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown...

Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.

 

[pendodave]

Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.

I can only speak for myself, but i have had two cancer related appointments cancelled indefinitely.
An age related bowel cancer scan. There are estimates of 1000s of early deaths as a consequence of these.
A regular 3 minthly check on a cancer op site. Will be upwards of 8 months before this takes place.
Multiply these by the millions of people in a similar position, you'll get plenty of deaths.
They, like all the life shortening consequences of unemployment and lack of education, won't be on the news tonight. As that is almost literally the attention/policy span of our leaders, they are completely ignored.

 

[huds1475]

I know my wife has been struggling to make sure kids in her school still have support, keeps her awake at night.

Letter from Marcus Rashford to MP’s helps shine a light on the problem;

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...able-marcus-rashfords-emotional-letter-to-mps

 

[rudebhoy]

Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.

Covid-19: “Staggering number” of extra deaths in community is not explained by covid-19

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931

Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by covid-19, new data have shown.

Article reports 30,000 excess deaths in the community by 13th May, but only 10,000 attributable to Covid-19.

 

[Foxholer]

I can only speak for myself, but i have had two cancer related appointments cancelled indefinitely.
An age related bowel cancer scan. There are estimates of 1000s of early deaths as a consequence of these.
A regular 3 minthly check on a cancer op site. Will be upwards of 8 months before this takes place.
Multiply these by the millions of people in a similar position, you'll get plenty of deaths.
They, like all the life shortening consequences of unemployment and lack of education, won't be on the news tonight. As that is almost literally the attention/policy span of our leaders, they are completely ignored.

While it's certainly regrettable, early consequential deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply 'clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown'!

 

[rudebhoy]

While it's certainly regrettable, early consequential deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply 'clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown'!

see post 3855.

 

[pendodave]

While it's certainly regrettable, early consequential deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply 'clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown'!

Lol. That's all right then. They don't count. Lockdown is a great success after all...

 

[Foxholer]

see post 3855.

How many were 'caused by the lockdown'?
I'd suggest the extra deaths were caused by the necessities forced on the NHS by the pandemic! So the #1 priority has to (still) be minimising the effects of the pandemic, including the need for lockdown, not (yet) those of the lockdown!

 

[Foxholer]

Lol. That's all right then. They don't count. Lockdown is a great success after all...

Compared to 'business as normal', I'd suggest an outstanding success!!

 

[rudebhoy]

How many were 'caused by the lockdown'?
I'd suggest the extra deaths were caused by the necessities forced on the NHS by the pandemic! So the #1 priority has to (still) be minimising the effects of the pandemic, including te need for lockdown, not (yet) those of the lockdown!

you seem to be splitting hairs here. I'm sure the OP's point was about extra non-covid related deaths as a result of the knock on effects of the pandemic.

 

[Backache]

As far as I can seethe excess deaths have shadowed very closely the Covid deaths in this country and abroad . If they were due to lockdown they should not have fallen when lockdown remained in place but covid was falling. The most plausible explanation in my view is that it is undiagnosed covid causing the deaths.
When doctors go on strike and patients have restricted access to hospital death rates do not normally rise they fall or remain static.

 

[pendodave]

When doctors go on strike and patients have restricted access to hospital death rates do not normally rise they fall or remain static.

Do you have numbers for that??

 

[Backache]

Do you have numbers for that??

The numbers vary across countries but it's a well recognised phenomenon
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953608005066

 

[PNWokingham]

y

Evidence please! I know folk at my local have modified their surgery schedule, but the 2 contacts I have have stated that crucial/near crucial cases are still being serviced at pre-lockdown rates, with cases deemed non-crucial being the ones deferred. Not ideal - as quality of life and recovery time suffer - but pretty reasonable under the circumstances. Not spoken to either for a couple of weeks, but expect it's getting back to near-normal - at least in ops, if not look and feel! - these days.

I am stating the bleedin obvious and have not got time to investigate and send lots of supporting commentary that has been widely reported. And i mean deaths that will occur more than what has happened in the last few months as early and not so early diagnosis of many ailments will have been missed, along with depression, lonililiness that will just make some people lose the will to live. And the whole area around this will not be easy to quantify with statistics, certainly not at the moment - but pretty much a certainty that it will be significant

 

[PNWokingham]

While it's certainly regrettable, early consequential deaths was not what was in PNW's post - simply 'clearly a lot of deaths in all other areas that have been caused by the lockdown'!

that is exactly what i meant - i think others understood without being so pedantic

 

[Foxholer]

that is exactly what i meant - i think others understood without being so pedantic

Well it's certainly NOT what you posted - and you went on to argue that 'the lockdown' should be lifted as it (not mentioning 'the pandemic') was the cause of many deaths. That significant difference is NOT being pedantic - at least not imo!

Btw. You still haven't actually made it clear what you meant - simply 'that' which could mean either, or both! I presume it's the bit that I had put in bold.

 

[Foxholer]

y


I am stating the bleedin obvious and have not got time to investigate and send lots of supporting commentary that has been widely reported. And i mean deaths that will occur more than what has happened in the last few months as early and not so early diagnosis of many ailments will have been missed, along with depression, lonililiness that will just make some people lose the will to live. And the whole area around this will not be easy to quantify with statistics, certainly not at the moment - but pretty much a certainty that it will be significant

Not caused by the lockdown though - which is what you were arguing needed to be lifted. Cause was 'the pandemic', not 'lockdown' Lifting the lockdown too early will have the opposite effect to what we all want!

 

[pendodave]

Lifting the lockdown too early will have the opposite effect to what we all want!

I love the thoughtless assumption in this statement.
For 10s of millions of people, the lockdown reduces their life chances by making them unemployed and increases their chance of an early death by removing access to preventative medicine.
The idea that it is a universal truth is no place to start (or continue) a discussion, surely?