Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[huds1475]

Wrong, you can only be responsible for actions and outcomes over which you hold the levers of control and ability to monitor.

Govt is accountable for how the country is managed during the pandemic.

They're not responsible for each death, the virus, global supply chains and so on.

But these things are great for a free hit if one isn't accountable and has the benefit of hindsight.

Neither of you are daft though, just absolutes dont work very well on an Internet page ?

 

[rulefan]

I believe that the lock down came about 10 days to 2 weeks too late. And I believe it should have been stricter. To me it seemed as though Boris was trying to be everybody's best friend rather than a leader. The fiasco (IMO) of advising people not to go to the pub rather than simply closing them shouldn't have happened. Also the banning of mass gatherings, such as Cheltenham and the Liverpool v Athletico match, should've happened sooner.

That seems like hind site.
What factual information would have made you take those decisions at that time and what information did you and Johnson actually have at that time?

 

[rulefan]

Early days we were getting stories/statements/press releases from different NHS Trusts about their stocks and supplies of PPE, accepting the Government role is/was limited on the procurement of supplies within the NHS, I believe at the time they should of stepped in, put someone in charge of oversight and got a clear picture of exactly what was going on in regards hospital/trusts stocks of PPE, then were there was a surplus or shortage it should of been moved about.

They never seemed to get a grip of the PPE problems early enough in to the crisis and it led to the fiasco like the Turkey order etc.

The NHS procurement bodies resisted interference from the centre. My son's sister in law is the procurement director of one of the larger NHS trusts and told my son at the time. He incidentally, is a procurement consultant and maintains that outside the MoD, the NHS has the worst procurement reputation in the business.
When the centre got their hands on it it turned out they hadn't got buyers with the experience of sourcing PPE products from overseas.

 

[AmandaJR]

The NHS procurement bodies resisted interference from the centre. My son's sister in law is the procurement director of one of the larger NHS trusts and told my son at the time. He incidentally, is a procurement consultant and maintains that outside the MoD, the NHS has the worst procurement reputation in the business.
When the centre got their hands on it it turned out they hadn't got buyers with the experience of sourcing PPE products from overseas.

There have been other errors made by NHS Admin but it seems the NHS as a whole are beyond reproach at the moment so the Government take the hit. The times the CEO of NHS Providers has been interviewed and you'd honestly think he had zero responsibility for any procurement whatsoever. Recently the lack of numbers from Track and Trace has been a stick to beat the Government and yet that again is an NHS responsibility.

I'm sure the lines are blurred due to the pandemic but it is not all the Governement's responsibility.

 

[PNWokingham]

Extremely ironic coming from one of the most devisive people going when it comes to the nations of the UK - I don’t think you even understand unity and spend most of the time telling us all how great Sturgeon is doing compared to Johnson

beat me to that one Phil!!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The NHS procurement bodies resisted interference from the centre. My son's sister in law is the procurement director of one of the larger NHS trusts and told my son at the time. He incidentally, is a procurement consultant and maintains that outside the MoD, the NHS has the worst procurement reputation in the business.
When the centre got their hands on it it turned out they hadn't got buyers with the experience of sourcing PPE products from overseas.

This is a global pandemic that no one has experienced before, the Government are responsible for this Country, so they have the power and authority to step in and sort out whatever needed doing.

The NHS Procurement bodies should of been put in their place from minute 1, we read on here and in the media about the Trusts that were working well, they should of been used as “best practise” and everyone pull together.

I’m not saying for one minute the Government had the ability to do it themselves or their own expert, but they do have the power to step in and sort it out.

If the PPE wasn’t such a fiasco, why did it drag on?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

There have been other errors made by NHS Admin but it seems the NHS as a whole are beyond reproach at the moment so the Government take the hit. The times the CEO of NHS Providers has been interviewed and you'd honestly think he had zero responsibility for any procurement whatsoever. Recently the lack of numbers from Track and Trace has been a stick to beat the Government and yet that again is an NHS responsibility.

I'm sure the lines are blurred due to the pandemic but it is not all the Governement's responsibility.

The Government cannot simply absolve themselves of responsibility by handing it off to someone else.

If it’s not working or there are problems then they step in and get answers.

 

[AmandaJR]

The Government cannot simply absolve themselves of responsibility by handing it off to someone else.

If it’s not working or there are problems then they step in and get answers.

They don't. Not once have they said "it's their fault" - far from it. I'm just saying the responsiblity for errors made doesn't just come from one place.

 

[patricks148]

Spot on imho. He was being what Boris is, a populist who struggles with details, is obviously dependent on Cummings being around, goes Awol when the going gets tough to avoid questioning and increasing seems to be out of his depth and I suspect is desperate to get back to Brexit. Which is worrying if he is in charge of trying to open us up more and get us out of this.

Wouldn't be surprised if we get a second peak and most other countries don't then Rishi will be PM.

one thing i'm not getting is when DC did his press conf the other week, he stated that he predicted the Pandemic, so if this was the case why were we not better prep for what was coming after effects it had in China at the start. ?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

They don't. Not once have they said "it's their fault" - far from it. I'm just saying the responsiblity for errors made doesn't just come from one place.

People(not just you) are using words like blame and errors etc, everyone accepts there has been and will be mistakes, that doesn’t change the responsibility though, responsibility is all encompassing, both good and bad, it’s not a criticism of the Government, just a fact.

 

[SocketRocket]

It cuts both ways. There are plenty who seem eager to absolve the government of any responsibility. The truth, as almost always, lies somewhere in between.

Do they! l don't see people absolving the Government of any responsibility.

 

[SocketRocket]

You should check out what they're saying on the Golf Monthly forum.

I keep away from extreme political Forums. Could anyone improve my chipping?

 

[drdel]

The Government cannot simply absolve themselves of responsibility by handing it off to someone else.

If it’s not working or there are problems then they step in and get answers.

There is always a lag in decisionmaking.
Until the poor inventory planning of PPE stocks by the NHS Trusts became apparent there wasn't a problem to solve.
Until the ratte of infection started to be seen the threat to NHS emergency capacity was not forcaste.
Until the medics found current treatment were not effective the need for new vaccines and treatments weren't anticipated.

The world lost valuable leadtime of a couple of months because of missinformation and reporting delays by China so everyone was playing a desperate game of catch up.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

There is always a lag in decisionmaking.
Until the poor inventory planning of PPE stocks by the NHS Trusts became apparent there wasn't a problem to solve.
Until the ratte of infection started to be seen the threat to NHS emergency capacity was not forcaste.
Until the medics found current treatment were not effective the need for new vaccines and treatments weren't anticipated.

The world lost valuable leadtime of a couple of months because of missinformation and reporting delays by China so everyone was playing a desperate game of catch up.

I’m not having a go at the Government when I’m saying it’s their responsibility, it comes with the job.

As for China, was this a new China that blind sided the world with missinformation and reporting delays or the same China that has behaved like that for years?

Is there no scenario in which any Government (not just ours) could’ve been over-cautious or over-complacent with what was happening in China based on their record?

 

[PNWokingham]

There is always a lag in decisionmaking.
Until the poor inventory planning of PPE stocks by the NHS Trusts became apparent there wasn't a problem to solve.
Until the ratte of infection started to be seen the threat to NHS emergency capacity was not forcaste.
Until the medics found current treatment were not effective the need for new vaccines and treatments weren't anticipated.

The world lost valuable leadtime of a couple of months because of missinformation and reporting delays by China so everyone was playing a desperate game of catch up.

very well put. I suspect that the whole nhs qaungo infrastructure will be on for a serious overhaul - and to even understand the set up let alone plan the improvements will take months

 

[Deleted member 16999]

So here’s a question on responsibility by the Government, it was announced yesterday over 800,000 NHS Employees are to be able to access type 1 or type 2 masks on a daily basis from 15 June.

Today the Deputy Chief Executive of NHS providers has come out and said NHS Trusts were neither informed of this decision or asked what stocks they have available or can procure in 9 days.

Some Staff will also need to be trained in how to use them, how difficult that is, I have no idea.

Hopefully, all will be ok and all NHS Staff will be looked after.

My question is: If the stocks are not available or the system can’t supply them and some Trusts can’t meet the deadline, were do we think responsibility will lie?

 

[PNWokingham]

I’m not having a go at the Government when I’m saying it’s their responsibility, it comes with the job.

As for China, was this a new China that blind sided the world with missinformation and reporting delays or the same China that has behaved like that for years?

Is there no scenario in which any Government (not just ours) could’ve been over-cautious or over-complacent with what was happening in China based on their record?

China and its place in the global economy is the other key thing that will change post Covid. Trump was alreeady stoking the fire with trade renegotiations/ Huawai. But now the rest of the world has now joined in and a multi-year change in relations will happen and i suspect that China's place in the global heirarchy will change. Too early tpo tell if this turns into a full-blown cold war or if Xi can backtrack on the more authoritarian route he has taken the country over the last few years - anyway, one for another discussion thread!

 

[drdel]

We have numerous gatherings and protests taking place here in the UK and many othe countries where Social Distancing advice is being ignored and few masks are evidence on the protesters.

Given the lag in the virus symtoms coming out in an individual I wonder if anyone who unfortunately becomes infected at a protest will tell the 'Track and Trace' system that's where they were in contact with many others.

If (hopefully not) there is a spike(s) I wonder if the connection will be made honestly rather than PC laying the blame at the relaxing of lockdown measures?

 

[PNWokingham]

So here’s a question on responsibility by the Government, it was announced yesterday over 800,000 NHS Employees are to be able to access type 1 or type 2 masks on a daily basis from 15 June.

Today the Deputy Chief Executive of NHS providers has come out and said NHS Trusts were neither informed of this decision or asked what stocks they have available or can procure in 9 days.

Some Staff will also need to be trained in how to use them, how difficult that is, I have no idea.

Hopefully, all will be ok and all NHS Staff will be looked after.

My question is: If the stocks are not available or the system can’t supply them and some Trusts can’t meet the deadline, were do we think responsibility will lie?

Nicola Sturgeon obviously!

 

[drdel]

China and its place in the global economy is the other key thing that will change post Covid. Trump was alreeady stoking the fire with trade renegotiations/ Huawai. But now the rest of the world has now joined in and a multi-year change in relations will happen and i suspect that China's place in the global heirarchy will change. Too early tpo tell if this turns into a full-blown cold war or if Xi can backtrack on the more authoritarian route he has taken the country over the last few years - anyway, one for another discussion thread!

China is a civilisation based in the notion of honour and pride - that will prevent any admission of wrong doing or mistakes. Xi will never backtrack and his internal persona will mean that he will use 'attack'' to divert and blame - we can see evidence with the reaction to Australia and the treatment of HK. Events could easily become outx of hand.