Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your not likely to go so don't worry about it. Very few Scots go back north. Stop being silly. It's no wonder I thought you were DfT

yeh - I was being serious - right...

 

[Billysboots]

Much as I hate directing traffic to the Daily Mail I made an exception to help some some types believe it as it is in the Daily Mail, not the communist Guardian. I mean it's not great is it whatever paper you read it in and dare I say it makes our government look a bit incompetent? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8387971/Britain-announces-coronavirus-deaths.html

The Mail, more than most, seem to be delighting in putting a negative spin on absolutely everything. Our deaths will at some point be in double digits daily, then single, and they will still find reason to spread doom and gloom.

Comparing the U.K. figures to anyone else is utterly meaningless unless every country is counting deaths in exactly the same way. I don’t doubt we are understating ours, but nowhere near as wildly as some countries.

I will be staggered if, for example, Germany’s figures are an accurate reflection of what is happening there. And the less said about China and Russia, the better. And in common with others, I simply refuse to believe the sudden eradication of deaths in Spain.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I am not sure how to follow this through to your wife's shop. There seem to be other things there when clicking on the shop now button, and when looking for mask you get other sellers.

She doesn't have a shop and sells directly through her Facebook page. If you send a message to her page one of us will reply to the message.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The Mail, more than most, seem to be delighting in putting a negative spin on absolutely everything. Our deaths will at some point be in double digits daily, then single, and they will still find reason to spread doom and gloom.

Comparing the U.K. figures to anyone else is utterly meaningless unless every country is counting deaths in exactly the same way. I don’t doubt we are understating ours, but nowhere near as wildly as some countries.

I will be staggered if, for example, Germany’s figures are an accurate reflection of what is happening there. And the less said about China and Russia, the better. And in common with others, I simply refuse to believe the sudden eradication of deaths in Spain.

Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not.
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid.
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not.
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid.
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.

Actually Johnson's hero is Sir Winston Churchill as he has made plain on innumerable occasions.

 

[drdel]

Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not.
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid.
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.

And you know for a fact these are falsehoods.

 

[GB72]

Re comparing figures etc , perhaps you should have a word in Johnson's ear as every second announcements seems to be either 'best in the world', 'world beating' 'leading the world' etc etc etc..........when quite clearly they are not.
Johnson following the road of his hero Trump I'm afraid.
Let's hope the British public are not so easily fooled.

I am not of the opinion that I have been fooled by anything but rather that I am digging as deeper to get an understanding of what is going on. I am not a cheerleader for the government but what I am is someone who is becoming frustrated about the way that this is being reported. It does not take much digging to find that there are signs of the manipulation of figures and my gut feeling is that actually ours are more accurate of reflection of the position than most of Europe. I wish I had saved the article I read over the last couple of days about the Spanish figures. It was along the lines of a change so as they were only reporting deaths that had occurred and been reported in the last 24 hours in the daily figures. Apparently under that system, the UK would be reporting less than 20 deaths a day. Spain then issues a separate report at the end of the week to clear up those that were not included in the daily figures but this report is so far removed from any used anywhere else that it cannot be compared. As mentioned a number of times on here, there are also disparities between the way that is decided if someone passing is caused by covid. Germany, for example, only include deaths in the figures if that is the definitive cause whereas we record it if someone who dies tests positive, whether that was the cause or not. You could also look at testing demographics for recovery rates etc.

I agree that the hyperbole about 'world beating' needs to be toned down but so does the rhetoric about our figures being so much worse than anyone in Europe when the comparison simply does not make sense and actually shows nothing.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

And you know for a fact these are falsehoods.

Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately

 

[Billysboots]

my gut feeling is that actually ours are more accurate of reflection of the position than most of Europe.

Totally agree.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately

Id say from my viewings we are at a 50/50 split in wearers right now

The delay allows for people to make or buy some. I can imagine supplies will be hard to get at first

Gives people warning to adapt before you will get a fine

I'd say by the 10th you will see a 80/20 split .. most adopt once they know is coming.

 

[GB72]

Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately

I am guessing because the majority of shops only open on 15th June and that will also trigger a more significant increase in public transfer use. Also gives people 10 days to get masks, face coverings etc. I can see the outcry if people were suddenly told they would be fined or refused transport for not having a face covering at only 24 hours notice. Plus, of course, many places selling them are online order only so that takes time to deliver and there are few places you can walk in and buy what you need until 15th and even then there would be the irony that you could not take public transport to go and buy the face covering you need to go on public transport.

 

[Slab]

Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately

I am guessing because the majority of shops only open on 15th June and that will also trigger a more significant increase in public transfer use. Also gives people 10 days to get masks, face coverings etc. I can see the outcry if people were suddenly told they would be fined or refused transport for not having a face covering at only 24 hours notice. Plus, of course, many places selling them are online order only so that takes time to deliver and there are few places you can walk in and buy what you need until 15th and even then there would be the irony that you could not take public transport to go and buy the face covering you need to go on public transport.

Has this changed now? I read that the wearing of face masks was for public transport

 

[GB72]

Has this changed now? I read that the wearing of face masks was for public transport

Nope, still only public transport though advisable to do so in shops. My point was that the opening of shops will trigger a bigger increase in the use of public transport by both shoppers and workers and so more need for face coverings on more packed buses and tubes.

 

[Slab]

Nope, still only public transport though advisable to do so in shops. My point was that the opening of shops will trigger a bigger increase in the use of public transport by both shoppers and workers and so more need for face coverings on more packed buses and tubes.

Ah ok, I think it should be extended to shops too, in fact any public space & it should have been done many weeks ago. The day a government locks down its society is the day that the wearing of face masks should be made compulsory in public (doing the former without the latter is kinda self-defeating)

 

[drdel]

Well they have yet to be proven.
At the moment they seem to be in the same category as a young athlete saying they plan to win the next Olympic 100m sprint in a world record time.
That has 'yet to be proven but is also not a falsehood.'

PS...any reason why the compulsory wearing of face masks in shops and on public transport is being delayed by 15 days in England.
That not make sense to me, if it is beneficial surely it should be instigated immediately

You are the one making negative assertions.

The advice is still to stay at home and work from home. If you got to work try NOT to use public transport. If you use PT you will need to wear face covering because the 2m rule is very hard to maintain.
When normal shops open it may then be wise to use face coverings but not yet.

The social distancing and stay at home as much as possible is still the main way to reduce infections and will be for several more months

 

[GB72]

Ah ok, I think it should be extended to shops too, in fact any public space & it should have been done many weeks ago. The day a government locks down its society is the day that the wearing of face masks should be made compulsory in public (doing the former without the latter is kinda self-defeating)

I sort of get the reasoning behind not doing it initially. When you give people any form of protection like a mask, they do not know how to use it properly, believe it protects them rather than being there to protect others, and social distancing goes out the window as people think that they are now bullet proof. I used the analogy in an earlier post about rugby players wearing padding. The idea was to prevent injury but at first injuries increased as players took more risks as they thought they were protected.

Now I agree that they should be compulsory in indoor public spaces and those outdoors where social distancing cannot be applied. As a nation we have proved ourselves inherently incapable over the last few weeks of following arrows around supermarkets (though our generations of queuing skills have really shone through) and so masks make sense.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I understand that when Germany started to relax restrictions and allow small shops and restaurants to open, two things were (maybe still are) required of anyone entering 1) you have to clean your hands using anti-bacterial gel provided by the shop/restaurant and 2) complete a form giving your name and contact details (plus time going in?). The first measure is aimed at keeping things as 'virus-free' in the shop/restaurant as possible; the second is to support contact tracing for anyone tested positive who identified the shop or restaurant as somewhere they've been. The shop/restaurant can then provide details of everyone who might have been in the shop/rest at the same time as the infected.

Now I don't know if these were measures mandated by the authorities to allow shops/restaurants to open, or just measures voluntarily adopted - but they are simple and seem to make sense - and they don't rely on technology... I haven't heard of any such measures being suggested or proposed for when we open up small shops and restaurants?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I understand that when Germany started to relax restrictions and allow small shops and restaurants to open, two things were (maybe still are) required of anyone entering 1) you have to clean your hands using anti-bacterial gel provided by the shop/restaurant and 2) complete a form giving your name and contact details (plus time going in?). The first measure is aimed at keeping things as 'virus-free' in the shop/restaurant as possible; the second is to support contact tracing for anyone tested positive who identified the shop or restaurant as somewhere they've been. The shop/restaurant can then provide details of everyone who might have been in the shop/rest at the same time as the infected.

Now I don't know if these were measures mandated by the authorities to allow shops/restaurants to open, or just measures voluntarily adopted - but they are simple and seem to make sense - and they don't rely on technology... I haven't heard of any such measures being suggested or proposed for when we open up small shops and restaurants?

Down to each state to set those rules. They were not voluntary. Quite an administrative burden on each site but it did enable them to get going.

 

[pendodave]

Nope, still only public transport though advisable to do so in shops. My point was that the opening of shops will trigger a bigger increase in the use of public transport by both shoppers and workers and so more need for face coverings on more packed buses and tubes.

This is my understanding as well.
Fwiw, i've travelled (and worked) on public transport throughout the lockdown and have barely been within 20m of another person, let alone 2m. In contrast to most shopping expeditions. So I'm not sure that any particular opportunity has been missed.
Hospitals and care homes seem the most significant source of new infections according to the Telegraph and my own (extraordinarily small sample size) personal experience. I'm not sure which of those two is the least reliable...

 

[larmen]

Down to each state to set those rules. They were not voluntary. Quite an administrative burden on each site but it did enable them to get going.

I still wouldn’t go to a restaurant.
Someone you don’t know touched your food, your plate, your cutlery, ... .
They also came in contact with other customers before you that you don’t know.
And there is the restroom thing. Maybe not so bad for men, but still.
I think going out is the last thing that I will introduce again.