Clubs not uploading WHS data from competitions

[RangeRat]

Hi all

I don’t post on here much but visit often but I’d like an opinion/comments on this.

Recently I played in a pairs open at a club in Warwickshire. We played quite well and got 42 points, I came in on 10 holes.

So I’m thinking I’d be in line for a small handicap cut under the new WHS rules. Have had cuts like this before.

No results were forthcoming so I sent a few emails etc. Got a response from the Pro eventually saying that it was a non qualifier due to tee set up. No further explanation.

It’s July and I didn’t see any tees that looked unusual or forward to make it non qualifying. It wasn’t made public that this was the case. I know an employee of England golf who runs their comps and he suggested I report this to them for not complying with WHS policy.

Just come off the phone with their director who wasn’t interested. I know I don’t have a leg to stand on and have to accept their excuse, but behind all this it just seems to smack of laziness I.e. couldn’t be bothered to process the cards etc. there’s still no results up anywhere though was told eventually we came 5th and have a voucher for the shop lol. They can stick it.

The last open results on their website are from 2023. Only ever top 5 places listed, it looks to me that they haven’t bothered in the past and I seem to be the first person bothered by it.

Their director said “most people don’t want to be cut anyway”. I told him I wouldn’t be playing there again and he said “their club also can choose who they allow to play there”. Nice.

I play 20 plus opens a year and most clubs now make the effort and are courteous enough to post full results, in a timely fashion. This club just don’t seem to want to make the effort.

Just pissed off that a club like that nowadays run opens like roll ups or pub society gatherings. They are a well established members club.

Anyway got that off my chest, thanks.

 

[LincolnShep]

I'd be p*ssed off as well. I play a similar number of opens to you each year and you definitely get to know which are the good ones and which are not worth returning to. On two occasions, I've met the criteria for a betterball score to go on my handicap record and both times the hosting club has messed it up.
On the other hand, many clubs are run by volunteers and that means you sometimes get the people who are willing rather than the people who are capable!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

So they have all the 4bbb comps as Non Q ?

 

[RangeRat]

So they have all the 4bbb comps as Non Q ?

I suspect they do but can’t prove it. This is 4bbb Opens, not club comps.

I can’t find any listed on howdidido which is their software, and the results from their own website historically list top 5 places only. (From 2023 back, as there are no results from 2024 at all.)

They have said this is a one off, which I don’t entirely believe. But they can get off the hook as I’m not in a position to challenge.

I just wanted to rattle their cage a bit to get them to pull their finger out in future, but I doubt they will judging by the response.

Agree about the volunteering to a point but these clubs hold opens as money making events, but some can’t be bothered to make the effort of processing the scores.

The tee issue apparently is that one tee was more than 23 yards from its normal measured position, which I don’t believe as all tees were situated pretty much in the middle of their standard teeing infrastructure, nothing way forward outside normal teeing grounds.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I suspect they do but can’t prove it. I can’t find any listed on howdidido which is their software, and the results from their own website historically list top 5 places only. (From 2023 back, as there are no results from 2024 at all.)

They have said this is a one off, which I don’t entirely believe. But they can get off the hook as I’m not in a position to challenge.

I just wanted to rattle their cage a bit to get them to pull their finger out in future, but I doubt they will judging by the response.

The tee issue apparently is that one tee was more than 23 yards from its normal measured position, which I don’t believe as all tees were situated pretty much in the middle of their standard teeing infrastructure, nothing way forward outside normal teeing grounds.

Might be one of those clubs that believe team formats shouldn’t be used for HC purposes as it’s full of guess work

Not sure when it became mandatory for 4bbb to be qualifying

 

[RangeRat]

Qualifying for 4bbb came in last year, the calculations are rather complex, but apparently the club doesn’t have to get involved in that as once uploaded to WHS it will trigger any relevant scores and apply the rules.

I’ve had 2 this year and its worked fine up until now. Just shows up in the app as a counting score with differential etc.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Qualifying for 4bbb came in last year, the calculations are rather complex, but apparently the club doesn’t have to get involved in that as once uploaded to WHS it will trigger any relevant scores and apply the rules.

I’ve had 2 this year and its worked fine up until now. Just shows up in the app as a counting score with differential etc.

Yes when the comp is set up on the ISV the club declare it acceptable for qualifying scores - not sure when it became mandatory for any 4BBB to be declared qualifying - in the same way as singles

As for the calculation- it’s pure guess on the holes where your score doesn’t count

You could come in on 10 holes have a complete mare on 8 but get a HV adjustment- that to me is wrong

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I would say about 25% of the opens I play have you input your scores after the round. The rest just take the cards in. The former will largely publish the scores in full. The latter will only mention the top 3-5, the rest presumably go in the recycling bin. No way are all of them being used for potential h/c purposes.

 

[D-S]

Yes when the comp is set up on the ISV the club declare it acceptable for qualifying scores - not sure when it became mandatory for any 4BBB to be declared qualifying - in the same way as singles

As for the calculation- it’s pure guess on the holes where your score doesn’t count

You could come in on 10 holes have a complete mare on 8 but get a HV adjustment- that to me is wrong

So do you believe it is a ‘pure guess’ on 9 hole scores which are scaled up to 18 to make a valid differential? Or what about when there are a few holes out of play and they are designated for valid reasons as not started - is this all just guesswork and shouldn’t be allowed?

 

[Neilds]

So do you believe it is a ‘pure guess’ on 9 hole scores which are scaled up to 18 to make a valid differential? Or what about when there are a few holes out of play and they are designated for valid reasons as not started - is this all just guesswork and shouldn’t be allowed?

It's obviously not guesswork and I suspect AW is being a bit flippant - but what it isn't is your real score for 4BBB scores so shouldn't count - imo

 

[D-S]

It's obviously not guesswork and I suspect AW is being a bit flippant - but what it isn't is your real score for 4BBB scores so shouldn't count - imo

Fair enough but seemingly quite a lot of people, including the OP, seem to think they should.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

So do you believe it is a ‘pure guess’ on 9 hole scores which are scaled up to 18 to make a valid differential? Or what about when there are a few holes out of play and they are designated for valid reasons as not started - is this all just guesswork and shouldn’t be allowed?

Yes it’s a pure guess based on expected score

They are making up a score on a hole they haven’t played

And if a few holes are out of play then the course shouldn’t be acceptable for HC - again it’s more guessing

And none of it imo should be allowed

Should only be singles and on valid when playing 18 holes

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It's obviously not guesswork and I suspect AW is being a bit flippant - but what it isn't is your real score for 4BBB scores so shouldn't count - imo

If it’s not “guesswork” then what is it when the system scores you on a hole you haven’t played if they aren’t guessing

 

[Neilds]

If it’s not “guesswork” then what is it when the system scores you on a hole you haven’t played if they aren’t guessing

• Individual Contribution: Your score must count towards the team’s score in at least 9 holes.
• Team Performance: The team’s nett score must be at least 6 strokes better than par (or a minimum of 42 Stableford points).
• Individual Score: You must achieve a total Stableford score of 36 points or more.

Calculation of the individual's stableford score

1. For the holes where your score counted towards the team’s total, you receive those Stableford points.
2. For holes where your partner’s score counted, and they scored 2 or more points, you receive 1.5 points.
3. For holes where your partner scored 1 point, you receive 1 point. If your partner did not score, you receive 0 points.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

• Individual Contribution: Your score must count towards the team’s score in at least 9 holes.
• Team Performance: The team’s nett score must be at least 6 strokes better than par (or a minimum of 42 Stableford points).
• Individual Score: You must achieve a total Stableford score of 36 points or more.

Calculation of the individual's stableford score

1. For the holes where your score counted towards the team’s total, you receive those Stableford points.
2. For holes where your partner’s score counted, and they scored 2 or more points, you receive 1.5 points.
3. For holes where your partner scored 1 point, you receive 1 point. If your partner did not score, you receive 0 points.

As is said guesswork

You are being given “points” on holes you didn’t score on based on what your partner did

If I got a birdie for 4 points and my partner was OB he still gets points towards his HC based on other holes and how other people did

It’s a complete joke

 

[Neilds]

As is said guesswork

You are being given “points” on holes you didn’t score on based on what your partner did

If I got a birdie for 4 points and my partner was OB he still gets points towards his HC based on other holes and how other people did

It’s a complete joke

Not guesswork at all. There is a clear methodology used so the same for everyone.

I actually agree that it shouldn't be used at all as it doesn't reflect your golf. It also goes against the principle of declaring your intention to submit a card before playing a round so is double wrong.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Not guesswork at all. There is a clear methodology used so the same for everyone.

I actually agree that it shouldn't be used at all as it doesn't reflect your golf. It also goes against the principle of declaring your intention to submit a card before playing a round so is double wrong.

Its guessing though - they are guessing what you might have scored on a hole - they will dress it up with algorithms etc

If they wanted to use team formats then everyone should put their score down

At the weekend I was level par in 4bbb so would have been 37 points but on a CR of 1 over par but because my partner had shots on a number of the holes his score counted as opposed to mine so on the scorecard I had 8 he had 10 - he got a cut

 

[IanM]

I bet 42 points was only good for 36th place

 

[rulefan]

I bet 42 points was only good for 36th place

I was chatting with the guy who runs our twice yearly seniors 4BBB opens. He told me that over the last 10 years or so the top scores in the last few years are lower than earlier years.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I was chatting with the guy who runs our twice yearly seniors 4BBB opens. He told me that over the last 10 years or so the top scores in the last few years are lower than earlier years.

That doesn’t seem to be the case for the 4BBb we play

At the weekend it was 2 rounds - 43 and 47 the winners got for 90 points

It was 86 last year

80 the year before

And looking back scores normally around 84