Climate code red

[Foxholer]

I don't believe anyone has suggested debts don't need servicing, debt is a means to make money from people wanting to borrow, its scalable. Why would a smaller population make any difference.

Smaller population infers fewer people wanting to borrow or wanting to borrow less as fewer people to provide goods/services to. So profit is likely to be smaller - which would not go down very well with investors. Just compare profits of companies (banks particularly) in countries with small populations vs countries with large populations!

 

[SocketRocket]

Smaller population = less tax revenue. And govts don’t sell a product. Recession sees more people needing support, and from less people paying tax. Businesses can scale back but social services would need more.

Why can't Social services scale back to serve a smaller population.
Smaller population = Lower demand for services. This was a hypothetical discussion around smaller populations verses large ones. The point I was making was that smaller populations diminish world resources less and as such are better for the environment. Large populations are the powerhouses for carbon emissions, of course we can't wave a magic wand and suddenly vanish half the world's population but there is no doubt in my mind that overpopulation is what has to change, fiddling with the deckchairs won't work as the bows already underwater.

 

[SocketRocket]

Smaller population infers fewer people wanting to borrow or wanting to borrow less as fewer people to provide goods/services to. So profit is likely to be smaller - which would not go down very well with investors. Just compare profits of companies (banks particularly) in countries with small populations vs countries with large populations!

Were talking of what's killing the planet here. If there's any chance of saving it it's not going to be by making big profits, quite the contrary. Would doubling the world's population make us all better off financially or ecologically?

 

[bluewolf]

I think we all agree that the World population has to shrink. It’s the ramifications of doing it that is under discussion.
FWIW, this is exactly where the underlying theory of Marxism comes into its own ?

 

[SocketRocket]

I think we all agree that the World population has to shrink. It’s the ramifications of doing it that is under discussion.
FWIW, this is exactly where the underlying theory of Marxism comes into its own ?

I thought it was the state controlling the means of production.

 

[bluewolf]

I thought it was the state controlling the means of production.

Long time since I’ve looked at it, but my takeaway was that the end result of any functioning society was a form of communism.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

48.8 deg C in Sicily today (and that will have been in the shade) - an all time record high for Europe. Not supposed to be this hot in Europe. Plus serious wild fires in southern France and many parts of Greece and Turkey. Not good.

 

[stefanovic]

48 degrees is like a furnace. I've been in 42, and that was almost unbearable even in the shade.
Future holiday destinations might not be the Med.
Iceland, Greenland might actually be more attractive.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

48 degrees is like a furnace. I've been in 42, and that was almost unbearable even in the shade.
Future holiday destinations might not be the Med.
Iceland, Greenland might actually be more attractive.

That is certainly very warm. But a furnace is 1000 degrees C.

 

[stefanovic]

I was using a metaphor.

 

[Hobbit]

That is certainly very warm. But a furnace is 1000 degrees C.

Hair.
Use.
For the splitting of.

 

[BubbaP]

I know we should look at trends and not isolated events but I was fascinated by the heat, triggering a pressure change, which caused tidal flooding etc.

https://m.murciatoday.com/rare-mediterranean-tsunami-hits-guardamar-and-santa-pola_1630695-a.html

https://news-logics.com/alicante-hi...wave-in-the-sahara-and-the-british-face-47-c/

(2nd link esp for GB72 ?)

 

[SocketRocket]

I know we should look at trends and not isolated events but I was fascinated by the heat, triggering a pressure change, which caused tidal flooding etc.

https://m.murciatoday.com/rare-mediterranean-tsunami-hits-guardamar-and-santa-pola_1630695-a.html

https://news-logics.com/alicante-hi...wave-in-the-sahara-and-the-british-face-47-c/

(2nd link esp for GB72 ?)

"According to the Climatology department of the University of Alicante, this phenomenon typically occurs in the Balearic Islands, but it has been known to happen in the Costa Blanca before"

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Trees represent nearly all the biomass of our planet and we think they are there for our exploitation, as favoured by all political and religious parties.
This idea is completely wrong. Politicians as custodians of our planet - don't make me laugh.
Trees are there for an ecological purpose to help ensure our survival. They suck carbon out of the atmosphere from CO2 and then expel its oxygen. They cool the planet as opposed to man made structures which warm the planet. Cities are always warmer than the surrounding countryside.
It's true that trees are not the only carbon sinks. The oceans also play a big part.

An even more inconvenient truth is global population and for some reason it's never discussed in the media.
Covid itself would not have flourished had numbers been much less. The link between Covid and climate change.

An awkward truth lies still beyond. It is not Darwinian to vaccinate against a virus. It merely stores up an even bigger problem for the future.
The reason we are here today is because evolution is based upon unimaginable cruelty and suffering from the past.
It is believed that 99% of species from the past are now extinct. By our actions we are accelerating towards the demise of ourselves.

You are right about trees.
I have said for the last 20 yrs or more that things will get so bad that there will be giant mirrors ( or similar) put into orbit so that the rain forests ( what remains of them?) receive
daylight for almost 24 hrs per day.
(When it is dark, the carbon dioxide/oxygen exchange is reversed.)

 

[stefanovic]

Great wall of trees across Africa.

Growing the Great Green Wall | Tree Aid

But will there be enough rain to sustain them??

 

[Beezerk]

Great wall of trees across Africa.

Growing the Great Green Wall | Tree Aid

But will there be enough rain to sustain them??

You'd sort of hope they'd have thought of that before planting the trees ?

 

[Crumplezone]

Because significantly reducing populations, both locally and globally would most likely result in either a never ending worldwide recession, and/or possibly the collapse of most financial institutions globally.

The alternative seems to be spending countless billions on other extremely expensive and often contrived measures to reduce emissions and compensate for the effects of climate change. I don't think any economic arguments against reducing population growth hold any water whatsoever. Also money and wealth is a completely arbitrary concept and can be redefined at any time if there is a will. Unfortunately most governments are in the pockets of corporations and wealthy individuals who depend on the supply of cheap labour from people continuing to breed at the same rate. Even groups such as Extinction Rebellion, who some consider extreme, completely ignore the obvious fact that it's people who consume and pollute and no matter how much an individual changes their lifestyle, benefits to the environment are tiny compared to simply not having a child.

 

[cliveb]

Any attempt to deal with the issue needs to address some basic truths:
1. You're not going to stop people breeding.
2. You're not going to stop people in the developing world wanting the kind of stuff we have in the first world.
Both of these issues inevitably mean that energy use will increase. The only way to prevent that is to engineer a collapse of civilisation, because you're not going to change human nature.

3. The world is run by huge corporations for profit. Governments can't change that unless you revert to totalitarian states.

So: the world will need more energy, and the companies providing it are run for profit, with little regard to the future consequences.
Nothing will change until renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels (getting there), and we find an efficient way to store energy (a work in progress).
When that happens, the profit motive will effect the required change.
Let's hope it comes before there is a complete climate catastrophe.

 

[SocketRocket]

Any attempt to deal with the issue needs to address some basic truths:
1. You're not going to stop people breeding.
2. You're not going to stop people in the developing world wanting the kind of stuff we have in the first world.
Both of these issues inevitably mean that energy use will increase. The only way to prevent that is to engineer a collapse of civilisation, because you're not going to change human nature.

3. The world is run by huge corporations for profit. Governments can't change that unless you revert to totalitarian states.

So: the world will need more energy, and the companies providing it are run for profit, with little regard to the future consequences.
Nothing will change until renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels (getting there), and we find an efficient way to store energy (a work in progress).
When that happens, the profit motive will effect the required change.
Let's hope it comes before there is a complete climate catastrophe.

People may decide to have less children if they are incentivised,

 

[Crumplezone]

Any attempt to deal with the issue needs to address some basic truths:
1. You're not going to stop people breeding.

There would seem to be huge scope to improve sex education and access to contraception to reduce birth rates. Even in so called developed countries like the UK and USA. Providing financial incentives to have fewer children is a tricky one as it could unfairly target poor families. As the current 2 child benefit cap in the UK that exists specifically for that reason. Many people can now see the environmental impact of an ever increasing population and are choosing to have fewer children. However many, including environmental activists such as Extinction Rebellion as I mentioned, seem to be completely blind to it. More widespread awareness of this would have a big impact too I think.