Christian bakers 'gay cake' appeal defeat

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37753030

hmmm - struggle with this one - because I don't see any discrimination against the LGBT community - just a refusal to communicate a message they don't believe in.

And so what does it mean?

My own church lets out our church hall to the community for their parties, events, concerts etc. If say a Death Metal Band came along and asked to hold a gig in our hall - and their branding and music was of a 'satanic' nature (plenty of it is) - we'd refuse to take their booking on the grounds that we found their message offensive and against our beliefs.

This ruling means that we'd be guilty of the same offence (discrimination) as the Northern Irish bakers. And that is plainly just stupid.

Or if I am an artist - what if I get asked to do a painting of something I found very offensive and so refuse to take the commission?

 

[bluewolf]

THe fault lie shame not with the fact that you don't agree with the lifestyle, but that you apparently find it "offensive". Not particularly Christian, or humanitarian. I can only assume that Gay immigrants are not welcome either in your Christian country.

And you wonder why people are flocking away from Religion, when you can't even follow your own teachings.

 

[SocketRocket]

THe fault lie shame not with the fact that you don't agree with the lifestyle, but that you apparently find it "offensive". Not particularly Christian, or humanitarian. I can only assume that Gay immigrants are not welcome either in your Christian country.

And you wonder why people are flocking away from Religion, when you can't even follow your own teachings.

You cannot control peoples minds like that. If someone finds it offensive then that's their prerogative as long as they don't actively discriminate or openly cause offense.

 

[bluewolf]

You cannot control peoples minds like that. If someone finds it offensive then that's their prerogative as long as they don't actively discriminate or openly cause offense.

Who exactly is attempting to control his mind? He's free to be offended by whatever he likes with no influence from me. However, he has to accept that hypocrisy will be highlighted. He also has to accept that being offended by something doesn't give a business the right to discriminate.
He asked the question, he got an answer. This isn't a Vulcan mind trick.

 

[Farmergeddon]

I'm waiting for the first Muslim Butcher to be sued for not supplying pork or a Muslim printer for not publishing cartoons of Mohammed, frankly the ruling is bizarre if somebody dosent want to do something how can you decide they should just because the complainant is some sort of minority absolute stupidity.
Its things like this that gets political correctness a bad name.

 

[Slime]

I'm waiting for the first Muslim Butcher to be sued for not supplying pork or a Muslim printer for not publishing cartoons of Mohammed, frankly the ruling is bizarre if somebody dosent want to do something how can you decide they should just because the complainant is some sort of minority absolute stupidity.
Its things like this that gets political correctness a bad name.

Same as that.

 

[bluewolf]

I'm waiting for the first Muslim Butcher to be sued for not supplying pork or a Muslim printer for not publishing cartoons of Mohammed, frankly the ruling is bizarre if somebody dosent want to do something how can you decide they should just because the complainant is some sort of minority absolute stupidity.
Its things like this that gets political correctness a bad name.

There is a large difference between the product and the customer. You can't legislate against a Muslim butcher not serving pork. You can against a Muslim butcher not serving chicken to a Jew because he doesn't like them (as an example).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

THe fault lie shame not with the fact that you don't agree with the lifestyle, but that you apparently find it "offensive". Not particularly Christian, or humanitarian. I can only assume that Gay immigrants are not welcome either in your Christian country.

And you wonder why people are flocking away from Religion, when you can't even follow your own teachings.

You have made a massive assumption about my denomination (I have no idea what you thought it was) - and in fact you have got it totally wrong. The General Assembly of my denomination (the United Reformed Church) has voted to allow individual congregations to make their own decision on whether it should accept requests for a same-sex marriage to be conduction in their church - but in principle my denomination is accepting of same-sex marriage. The congregation I am a member of have yet to make that decision. I suspect that we will support same-sex marriage ceremonies to be carried out in our church.

And as it happens our decision and that of the GA are very much made in the context of the teachings of the bible - interpreted and understood as they must be in the context of the 21st Century. Not all denominations are the same.

If you had managed to see past your immediate anti-religion bias you'd read that my question was about the implications of the ruling. I gave an example of us refusing a booking from a death metal group because of their message - we'd be breaking the law?

And the artist example?

 

[bluewolf]

You have made a massive assumption about my denomination (I have no idea what you thought it was) - and in fact you have got it totally wrong. The General Assembly of my denomination (the United Reformed Church) has voted to allow individual congregations to make their own decision on whether it should accept requests for a same-sex marriage to be conduction in their church. The congregation I am a member of have yet to make that decision. I suspect that we will support same-sex marriage ceremonies to be carried out in our church.

If you had managed to see past your immediate anti-religion bias you'd read that my question was about the implications of the ruling. I gave an example of us refusing a booking from a death metal group because of their message - we'd be breaking the law?

And the artist example?

I've made no assumption about your denomination at all. Your Christian beliefs are paraded daily on here.

Your example of a "Satanic" death metal band is spurious in the extreme. You are equating purveyors of hate and intolerance with a loving couple. Ridiculous. Now, if the cake had a message of hatred against straight people on top then I'd agree, but I suspect it didn't.

Oh, and I'm not anti-religion. However, I am "anti-people who use religion to support their own hatred and intolerance".. Quite different.

 

[faroyon]

Me too

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I've made no assumption about your denomination at all. Your Christian beliefs are paraded daily on here.

Your example of a "Satanic" death metal band is spurious in the extreme. You are equating purveyors of hate and intolerance with a loving couple. Ridiculous. Now, if the cake had a message of hatred against straight people on top then I'd agree, but I suspect it didn't.

eh? Spurious? Who are the purveyors of hate and intolerance? I don't think you understand death/heavy metal if you think that that is what they purvey.

OK then - a local right wing facist group want to book a room in my church for a meeting. We refuse as we think their message is obnoxious. Guilty of discrimination?

And you made the HUGE assumption that I and my church were anti same-sex marriage when in principle we actually support it. Would be nice to have an apology but you don't have to as I have already forgiven you your error

 

[bluewolf]

eh? Spurious? Who are the purveyors of hate and intolerance? I don't think you understand death/heavy metal if you think that that is what they purvey.

OK then - a local right wing facist group want to book a room in my church for a meeting. We refuse as we think their message is obnoxious. Guilty of discrimination?

And you made the HUGE assumption that I and my church were anti same-sex marriage when in principle we actually support it.

You claimed that the branding and message was Satanic. I'm assuming you didn't think that would be about tea parties and book clubs. Or do you have a different interpretation of Satanic?

And once again you are inferring that Gay couples are obnoxious. particularly pathetic.

Quick question... Do you find gay couples obnoxious?

 

[FairwayDodger]

Oh dear. I'm afraid the court ruling is entirely correct and the only one it could be. You cannot run a business and discriminate based on any of a number of protected characteristics, sexual orientation being one.

You can discriminate against right wing fascists as, unsurprisingly, that isn't a protected characteristic.

It's not political correctness and it's not a difference of opinion. Gay people are real, we exist and being gay is just part of our nature. You cannot legally discriminate against us.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Oh dear. I'm afraid the court ruling is entirely correct and the only one it could be. You cannot run a business and discriminate based on any of a number of protected characteristics, sexual orientation being one.

You can discriminate against right wing fascists as, unsurprisingly, that isn't a protected characteristic.

It's not political correctness and it's not a difference of opinion. Gay people are real, we exist and being gay is just part of our nature. You cannot legally discriminate against us.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Fyldewhite]

Oh dear. I'm afraid the court ruling is entirely correct and the only one it could be. You cannot run a business and discriminate based on any of a number of protected characteristics, sexual orientation being one.

You can discriminate against right wing fascists as, unsurprisingly, that isn't a protected characteristic.

It's not political correctness and it's not a difference of opinion. Gay people are real, we exist and being gay is just part of our nature. You cannot legally discriminate against us.

^
^
This

 

[freddielong]

Why would you force someone who obviously doesn't like you to bake you a cake?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Why would you force someone who obviously doesn't like you to bake you a cake?

Seriously? Or are you trolling?

 

[Fyldewhite]

Why would you force someone who obviously doesn't like you to bake you a cake?

I expect they went into the bakers expecting to be able to place an order for a cake of their choosing. That's how it usually works. The principle here is that if you are in the business of providing goods or services then you cannot discriminate on the basis of a list of protected characteristics. So, for example, you cannot refuse to serve black people, or old people, or disabled people, or in this case gay people. It doesn't matter that you don't agree or like it, it's the law. If you don't like it then don't get into the business of supplying goods and services. The court found (rightly IMHO) that refusing to make a cake with a pro gay marriage slogan was discrimination.

 

[chrisd]

Karen has hit the nail on the head, you rent the roon to all and sundry but won't let It to people who's views you disagree with, that is plainly wrong. if you let like minded people use it for free I could see a difference but the church is out to make profit but be judgemental over the morals of the renters

 

[SocketRocket]

I expect they went into the bakers expecting to be able to place an order for a cake of their choosing. That's how it usually works. The principle here is that if you are in the business of providing goods or services then you cannot discriminate on the basis of a list of protected characteristics. So, for example, you cannot refuse to serve black people, or old people, or disabled people, or in this case gay people. It doesn't matter that you don't agree or like it, it's the law. If you don't like it then don't get into the business of supplying goods and services. The court found (rightly IMHO) that refusing to make a cake with a pro gay marriage slogan was discrimination.

I wonder if the same verdict would have been made if the Baker was Muslim? I would like to think it would.