Building a stance?

[Leveltwos]

Hi all. First post although I’ve been a read-only for a long time.
We had an interesting one at the club yesterday. It was freezing cold though the course was quite playable. One of the tees is set back in the trees and out of the sun and consequently it was like a skating rink and very hard to keep your footing on your tee shot. One of the players went to the previous green and got some sand from a bunker which he spread around a bit on the tee to give some sort of grip. One of the other players said that was building a stance. We thought it was just a good way of preventing potential injury to players. Thoughts?

 

[User101]

One of the other players is an arse, next.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

@Leveltwos - I don't know the answer - however - in the first instance I think as players ball is not in play there should not be an issue - but I can see how there might be. But also many tees have boxes containing sand/seed mix to spread on the tee. Am I prevented in doing that before hitting my ball? Or if I am playing in a 4BBB am I not allowed to spread sand on the tee repairing divots etc taken - or into skid marks if frosty - after playing but before my partner pays?

I'm not as sure as @Cabby response implies.

 

[User101]

It's questions and situations like this that has taken the R&A/USGA a couple of centuries to get the rules simplified, why it's taken so long is...ach well we know why I guess....but if it's the case that he is building a stance, then it's eveything that is wrong with the old dated rules...IMO...and I'm traditionalist.

 

[woody69]

He breaking the rule 13-3 and is building a stance.

Closet decision is probably 13-3/1 Standing on mat on teeing ground - So taking that in equity

Q. Is it permissible for a player to carry a mat and stand on it when playing from the teeing ground?

A. No. The player would be building a stance in breach of Rule 13-3

 

[duncan mackie]

Welcome leveltwos.

You need look no further than rule 1 for your answer. Section 1-2; A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a*ball in play*or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

The player is clearly, and deliberately, breaching part (ii).

Doesn't sound as if that teeing area should be in play on safety grounds, and the committee should do something about that.

 

[jim8flog]

I would say that the player is not breaking a rule rule 13 -2

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or

It could be argued that the application of sand is removing frost.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I would say that the player is not breaking a rule rule 13 -2

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or

It could be argued that the application of sand is removing frost.

Though my instinct was that he was building a stance - my doubt was around what you have said - which seem reasonable. I look at the tee and decide it needs a bit of sandy TLC. Can I spread a bit of sand over it before I play then take my stance on that now lightly sanded ground. Or as mentioned if I do that after I have played and/or before my PP (in a 4BBB or 4somes comp) has.

 

[duncan mackie]

Though my instinct was that he was building a stance - my doubt was around what you have said - which seem reasonable. I look at the tee and decide it needs a bit of sandy TLC. Can I spread a bit of sand over it before I play then take my stance on that now lightly sanded ground. Or as mentioned if I do that after I have played and/or before my PP (in a 4BBB or 4somes comp) has.

If you action is solely for the care of the course then that's fine - if it's intended to affect the playing of the hole.....(other than by an action expressly permitted e.g. those permitted on the teeing ground)

 

[atticusfinch]

This is not a case for an equity ruling. (The committee does that anyway,) The situation is covered in R 11-1. The player may play from the surface, the surface is not altered by placing a natural substance (sand is specifically included in allowed examples) on the tee (a mat is artificial). If the rule permits placing sand on the tee, it cannot, by definition, be building a stance. It does not even change it from "ground."

 

[duncan mackie]

This is not a case for an equity ruling. (The committee does that anyway,) The situation is covered in R 11-1. The player may play from the surface, the surface is not altered by placing a natural substance (sand is specifically included in allowed examples) on the tee (a mat is artificial). If the rule permits placing sand on the tee, it cannot, by definition, be building a stance. It does not even change it from "ground."

You seem to be reading a different rule 11 to mine.

 

[Leveltwos]

Thanks. Some interesting answers here across a range of different rule numbers although there doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer.
On refelection I would have thought that the definition of building a stance referred to something you had done specifically for yourself whereas the spreading of sand on the tee seems more general, building a stance for everyone (who is yet to play the hole). What if the player who spread the sand decided he may be in contravention of the rule so played from an unsanded area, and the other two then played from the sanded area? Can you build a stance for someone else?

 

[rulefan]

This is not a case for an equity ruling. (The committee does that anyway,) The situation is covered in R 11-1. The player may play from the surface, the surface is not altered by placing a natural substance (sand is specifically included in allowed examples) on the tee (a mat is artificial). If the rule permits placing sand on the tee, it cannot, by definition, be building a stance. It does not even change it from "ground."

I agree

11
For the purposes of this Rule, the surface of the ground includes an irregularity of surface (whether or not created by the player) and sand or other natural substance (whether or not placed by the player).


13
the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

• in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground,

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Thanks. Some interesting answers here across a range of different rule numbers although there doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer.
On refelection I would have thought that the definition of building a stance referred to something you had done specifically for yourself whereas the spreading of sand on the tee seems more general, building a stance for everyone (who is yet to play the hole). What if the player who spread the sand decided he may be in contravention of the rule so played from an unsanded area, and the other two then played from the sanded area? Can you build a stance for someone else?

I would have thought that building a stance applies to a ball in play rather than one on the tee before a stroke was made.

Am I the only person that will spread sand/soil/seed mix on a tee whilst waiting for the group in front to clear?

 

[duncan mackie]

I would have thought that building a stance applies to a ball in play rather than one on the tee before a stroke was made.

Am I the only person that will spread sand/soil/seed mix on a tee whilst waiting for the group in front to clear?

No, you wont be alone Mike.

And you are within the rules to do so either solely in caring for the course or in creating or removing irregularities on the teeing ground. By their nature such actions aren't building a stance. The creating irregularities is of course about using a mound of sand as a tee, from its historical use.

 

[atticusfinch]

[h=3]11-1. Teeing[/h]When a player is putting a ball into play from the teeing ground, it must be played from within the teeing ground and from the surface of the ground or from a conforming tee (see Appendix IV) in or on the surface of the ground.

For the purposes of this Rule, the surface of the ground includes an irregularity of surface (whether or not created by the player) and sand or other natural substance (whether or not placed by the player).

If a player makes a stroke at a ball on a non-conforming tee, or at a ball teed in a manner not permitted by this Rule, he is disqualified.

A player may stand outside the teeing ground to play a ball within it.

[h=3][/h]

 

[duncan mackie]

[h=3]11-1. Teeing[/h]When a player is putting a ball into play from the teeing ground, it must be played from within the teeing ground and from the surface of the ground or from a conforming tee (see Appendix IV) in or on the surface of the ground.

For the purposes of this Rule, the surface of the ground includes an irregularity of surface (whether or not created by the player) and sand or other natural substance (whether or not placed by the player).

If a player makes a stroke at a ball on a non-conforming tee, or at a ball teed in a manner not permitted by this Rule, he is disqualified.

A player may stand outside the teeing ground to play a ball within it.

[h=3][/h]

As you highlight, this is the rule about teeing, and requires the ball to be played from the surface of the ground within the teeing ground. As such it defines the surface of the ground to include sand, or other natural substance, as well as irregularities and includes the use of a conforming tee in, or on, the ground.

I will ask you this, where the player chooses to play from his stance, for the sake of this argument, is outside the teeing ground and has a large pivot where he wishes to place a foot. In order to assist instance the player fills the divot with sand, levels it and then plays. Is this permitted?

 

[rulefan]

No

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs: in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground

 

[duncan mackie]

No

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs: in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground

Glad we can find some common ground!

We still appear to disagree over the specific interpretation of 1-2 and the action taken together with the stated intention.