Brexit Two Months On

[Hobbit]

If we don't know that they are happening - then the perception is that very little is happening. .

That is your perception.

Do you honestly believe that those who have to negotiate the exit are sat around drinking tea and playing whist? Do you really believe they are wringing the hands, weeping and wailing?

Irrespective of anyone's political persuasion surely they can realise that the people that reach the top are reasonably intelligent, backed by career Civil Servants who are exceptionally intelligent.

We might not like the direction the UK is going, or maybe we do, but you can be sure that those that are working on it are working for the best outcome within the terms of reference they've been given.

 

[SocketRocket]

The responses that my above post has received from Brexiteers are woefully unconvincing. They seem to be built on wishful thinking." The pound will eventually stabilise". "Car manufacturers will be compensated if tariff barriers are applied"
When the wishful thinking stops, the assertions of confidence that the UK will emerge a better and more prosperous place take over. No justification, of course.
It makes me think of the bloke in the pub who has ordered a new car and bores his mates to death with stories of superlative performance, economy, handling, beauty and prestige. After taking delivery, he realises that all these claims were horribly exaggerated. As for telling his mates, it takes a particular humility to admit that you've been sold a pup.

Maybe some of us find your view unconvincing. You are presenting a scenario to fit with your personal view then convincing yourself that no one else's opinion is valid. Bit like the rest of us :smirk: We were certainly sold a Pup with our membership of the EU, started off as a nice friendly Golden Retriever and morphed into a Pit Bull with it's jaws locked around our throats.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

God, I hope that the SNP aren't involved, just as I would prefer it if no politicians from anywhere else were involved. If only we could leave this up to experts (even if we hate them), rather than people who can benefit from short term political points scoring (applicable to both Scottish and English and Welsh and NI politicians)

This view is all very well and humorous perhaps to many south of the border - but north of the border less so. And as you say - we can't leave it to the experts either as they would cancel Brexit - now that's funny.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That is your perception.

Do you honestly believe that those who have to negotiate the exit are sat around drinking tea and playing whist? Do you really believe they are wringing the hands, weeping and wailing?

Irrespective of anyone's political persuasion surely they can realise that the people that reach the top are reasonably intelligent, backed by career Civil Servants who are exceptionally intelligent.

We might not like the direction the UK is going, or maybe we do, but you can be sure that those that are working on it are working for the best outcome within the terms of reference they've been given.

I just do not get at all why you are arguing against us getting a little bit of clarity about the process to 31st March, because lack of visibility and a plan just causes uncertainty and we are seeing where uncertainty is getting us. What is the problem with giving us the process and a plan?

This is the most important negotiation of the last 50yrs and the 16m of us who voted to stay would like to have some confidence that the gov knows what it is doing, and I see absolutely no risk to the negotiations in doing that.

 

[SocketRocket]

This view is all very well and humorous perhaps to many south of the border - but north of the border less so. And as you say - we can't leave it to the experts either as they would cancel Brexit - now that's funny.

Wall, Head, Bang Bang Bang :temper:

 

[Hobbit]

I just do not get at all why you are arguing against us getting a little bit of clarity about the process to 31st March, because lack of visibility and a plan just causes uncertainty and we are seeing where uncertainty is getting us. What is the problem with giving us the process and a plan?

This is the most important negotiation of the last 50yrs and the 16m of us who voted to stay would like to have some confidence that the gov knows what it is doing, and I see absolutely no risk to the negotiations in doing that.

First of all, I'm one of those 16million who voted to Remain. And its great fun watching my annuity values fall through the floor just before I take my pension...

Secondly, the risk is why show your hand too soon. That gives the EU plenty of time to sort out their strategy. Why rush into something before everyone on the negotiating team is ready?

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Secondly, the risk is why show your hand too soon. That gives the EU plenty of time to sort out their strategy. Why rush into something before everyone on the negotiating team is ready?

Precisely.

 

[Foxholer]

That is your perception.

Do you honestly believe that those who have to negotiate the exit are sat around drinking tea and playing whist? Do you really believe they are wringing the hands, weeping and wailing?

Irrespective of anyone's political persuasion surely they can realise that the people that reach the top are reasonably intelligent, backed by career Civil Servants who are exceptionally intelligent.

We might not like the direction the UK is going, or maybe we do, but you can be sure that those that are working on it are working for the best outcome within the terms of reference they've been given.

You are putting A LOT of trust in the integrity of Civil Servants!

Generally, such trust is well founded - even if the policy they are implementing isn't something they believe in!

However, Brexit is a 'project' that could well be an expensive mess! Along similar lines to some of the disastrous, wastefully, expensive problems that some NHS Trusts have experienced! the Civil Service has not got a great reputation for decent performance in 'project' type activities - with 'consultants' having too much influence, to the detriment of the project, but at considerable profit to the consultants!!

I would like to see some sort of budget, plan and occasional progress reports, even if it is simply via the Select Committee process - a much underestimated (and occasionally abused) process of UK Government!

 

[Hobbit]

You are putting A LOT of trust in the integrity of Civil servants!

Generally, such trust is well founded - even if the policy they are implementing isn't something they believe in!

However, Brexit is a 'project' that could well be an expensive mess! Along similar lines to some of the disastrous, wastefully, expensive problems that some NHS Trusts have experienced!

I would like to see some sort of budget, plan and occasional progress reports, even if it is simply via the Select Committee process - a much underestimated (and occasionally abused) process of UK Government!

My trust is based on the eldest daughter and son-in-law being senior Civil Servants. I know how very intelligent they are, and many of their peers. I also know how many hours they are currently working.

Drinking tea and playing whist they most definitely aren't doing.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

You are putting A LOT of trust in the integrity of Civil Servants!

Generally, such trust is well founded - even if the policy they are implementing isn't something they believe in!

However, Brexit is a 'project' that could well be an expensive mess!

Well I can tell you that my fellow civil servants who voted to remain are working very hard to ensure that Brexit is a success so integrity is not an issue. And I disagree that Brexit is a project. It probably was to those who wanted it prior to it being a Conservative manifesto pledge and then up to the referendum, but it is now very much a policy.

 

[Foxholer]

Well I can tell you that my fellow civil servants who voted to remain are working very hard to ensure that Brexit is a success so integrity is not an issue. And I disagree that Brexit is a project. It probably was to those who wanted it prior to it being a Conservative manifesto pledge and then up to the referendum, but it is now very much a policy.

It's exactly this integrity that is so admirable!

However, your interpretation of'project' and 'policy' seem to differ! To me, a 'project' has a start/end date, while a 'policy' is an ongoing (though changeable!) application of rules/regulations - which might not actually even involve any effort, save that involved in defining the 'policy'!

By my definition, Brexit is a Project!

Btw. More confusion? Brexit was never a Conservative Manifesto pledge! It was the Referendum that was the Manifesto pledge!

 

[Deleted member 1418]

It's exactly this integrity that is so admirable!

However, your interpretation of'project' and 'policy' seem to differ! To me, a 'project' has a start/end date, while a 'policy' is an ongoing (though changeable!) application of rules/regulations - which might not actually even involve any effort, save that involved in defining the 'policy'!

By my definition, Brexit is a Project!

Btw. More confusion? Brexit was never a Conservative Manifesto pledge! It was the Referendum that was the Manifesto pledge!

Apologies but what I meant was Brexit has been a project for those who have always wanted it and this continued even after the Tories made a pledge to hold a referendum on our relationship with the EU. I disagree though on the project/policy front but can see your point, however I am working on possible policies which we would then implement post exit.

 

[Foxholer]

Apologies but what I meant was Brexit has been a project for those who have always wanted it and this continued even after the Tories made a pledge to hold a referendum on our relationship with the EU. I disagree though on the project/policy front but can see your point, however I am working on possible policies which we would then implement post exit.

:thup:

It's all about 'definitions'!

I wish you well establishing those policies! I hope you are 'flexible'! See what I mean by 'definitions'!

 

[ColchesterFC]

I have just seen an interesting comment posted on a local newspaper site regarding trade deals post-Brexit. The suggestion was that the EU could stop other countries from negotiating free trade deals with the UK and force them to impose tariffs by threatening those countries own trade deals with the EU. Obviously with the EU market place being a much bigger market than the UK this could have an impact on those other countries and our negotiations with them.

This post isn't meant to be used as scaremongering, I just wondered if anyone knew if this was even a possibility or if the UK can do anything about it if it were to happen.

 

[delc]

I have just seen an interesting comment posted on a local newspaper site regarding trade deals post-Brexit. The suggestion was that the EU could stop other countries from negotiating free trade deals with the UK and force them to impose tariffs by threatening those countries own trade deals with the EU. Obviously with the EU market place being a much bigger market than the UK this could have an impact on those other countries and our negotiations with them.

This post isn't meant to be used as scaremongering, I just wondered if anyone knew if this was even a possibility or if the UK can do anything about it if it were to happen.

I am sure that some of the EU countries have a desire to punish the UK for leaving the EU. In any case we are likely to end up with a worse deal than we have now as a full member!

 

[ColchesterFC]

I am sure that some of the EU countries have a desire to punish the UK for leaving the EU. In any case we are likely to end up with a worse deal than we have now as a full member!

A worse trade deal? Possibly. But whether the overall deal is better or worse for the UK remains to be seen.

Reforming from within didn't go so well with Cameron's negotiations pre-referendum so I don't understand why so many people think we could have done it if we had voted to remain.

 

[delc]

A worse trade deal? Possibly. But whether the overall deal is better or worse for the UK remains to be seen.

Reforming from within didn't go so well with Cameron's negotiations pre-referendum so I don't understand why so many people think we could have done it if we had voted to remain.

I believe that even some of the senior politicians and bureaucrats within the EU hierarchy acknowledge that the EU needs reforming.

 

[Hobbit]

I have just seen an interesting comment posted on a local newspaper site regarding trade deals post-Brexit. The suggestion was that the EU could stop other countries from negotiating free trade deals with the UK and force them to impose tariffs by threatening those countries own trade deals with the EU. Obviously with the EU market place being a much bigger market than the UK this could have an impact on those other countries and our negotiations with them.

This post isn't meant to be used as scaremongering, I just wondered if anyone knew if this was even a possibility or if the UK can do anything about it if it were to happen.

I read an article at the weekend in which, apparently, 30 countries have advised the EU not to punish the U.K. with tariffs as it will hurt those 30 countries. Apparently they will play hard ball with the Eu on tariffs if they are hurt by dealing through the UK.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I believe that even some of the senior politicians and bureaucrats within the EU hierarchy acknowledge that the EU needs reforming.

It would certainly be ironic if the UK voting to leave the EU led to the sort of reforms that would make the EU the sort of organisation that would be attractive for the UK to be a member of. What odds on a new referendum a few years down the line asking whether the UK should join the newly reformed EU?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

First of all, I'm one of those 16million who voted to Remain. And its great fun watching my annuity values fall through the floor just before I take my pension...

Secondly, the risk is why show your hand too soon. That gives the EU plenty of time to sort out their strategy. Why rush into something before everyone on the negotiating team is ready?

Sorry - but I don't think you understood what I said. I am quite clear that the plan would give nothing away about the negotiating hand - the plan simply maps out the process to be followed to get to the negotiating hand, and shows at the top level who would be involved at each stage of the process, this has nothing to do with negotiating hand and would give nothing away.