Brexit Two Months On

[jp5]

Her specific promises are irrelevant, given as you say it wasn't a GE.

Having decided to take the helm, she takes responsibility for enacting the promises made by the victorious campaign.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Her responsibility is to enforce the policies from the Tory manifesto at the last election, not spurious rantings from a stand alone yes/no vote. The leave campaign was not run by the Conservative party, it was a free vote. She is only tied to the result and logic suggests she should abide by the wishes for tighter immigration as that came through clearly in the election. Nothing else. Should she enforce suggestions by Nigel Farage for example, someone she has no control over and is not even in the same party as her?

 

[IanM]

Tory Manifesto was clear on having a Referendum and abiding by the outcome. She seems to be getting on with it.

The Civil Service started on the prep within a week of the result.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Her responsibility is to enforce the policies from the Tory manifesto at the last election, not spurious rantings from a stand alone yes/no vote. The leave campaign was not run by the Conservative party, it was a free vote. She is only tied to the result and logic suggests she should abide by the wishes for tighter immigration as that came through clearly in the election. Nothing else. Should she enforce suggestions by Nigel Farage for example, someone she has no control over and is not even in the same party as her?

I think she has a moral obligation to deliver what people voted for. All of it. Access to the free trade area without freedom of movement, £350m/week for the nhs - all the leave campaigns promises.

we keep hearing that the country voted and we need to respect the result so fine, get on with it, but deliver what was promised.

 

[Alex1975]

Its a funny post....

For those who clearly, literally have no one to talk to in their lives, post here things they don't even truly believe just to get a conversation try QVC or one of those insurance companies who give you a free pen for calling. These people will talk to you.

 

[jp5]

Think you may have missed the point of a forum.

 

[jp5]

Her responsibility is to enforce the policies from the Tory manifesto at the last election, not spurious rantings from a stand alone yes/no vote. The leave campaign was not run by the Conservative party, it was a free vote. She is only tied to the result and logic suggests she should abide by the wishes for tighter immigration as that came through clearly in the election. Nothing else. Should she enforce suggestions by Nigel Farage for example, someone she has no control over and is not even in the same party as her?

Farage is pretty much the sole reason the referendum was had! Would say UKIP have a much greater influence over Government policy than the SNP or Lib Dems despite their lesser presence in the HoC (an artefact of a poor voting system).

I do think politically May is tied to the promises of the official campaign. She decided to take charge knowing the guarantees that had been made.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You really are nothing more than a mirror image of "Daily Mail Man".

Never mind the detail or the facts just find a headline that you can use to trumpet your pre-conceived anti-Conservative Party views.

You cannot uncouple from a debate you ere never part of as to be involved you do, at least, have to listen and acknowledge opinions other than your own. Anything less is, I am afraid, nothing other than prejudice.

And I speak as one who was active in the Remain camp.

I have tried to listen - maybe you are right - and it hasn't got in. Maybe I am just missing the obvious. As I have said on more than one occasion - I really want the UK exiting the EU to work - I really do. I have children who will suffer if it does not - I do not think I will particularly suffer financially if it goes wrong - but my children will - so I want this exit to succeed. Whether you believe me or not - well I can't change that.

I do however have a worry that a hard exit and (very?) controlled and restricted immigration will make the UK a less pleasant place in which to live as every 'foreigner' becomes for some a potential illegal immigrant; every current non-UK EU citizen remaining in the UK will become someone who - to some - should be 'going home' and who will feel 'unwanted'. I very much hope I am wrong and that the christian values that underpin UK laws, culture and behaviours will prevail. The majority - 64% according to a poll last year seem to still believe we are a christian country - we'll see how christian we are in practice over the coming years.

 

[Alex1975]

Think you may have missed the point of a forum.

I guess I would have said the same. However I am not sure that some put what they actually think, more put something that will spark a conversations because they are lonely.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I have tried to listen - maybe you are right - and it hasn't got in. Maybe I am just missing the obvious. As I have said on more than one occasion - I really want the UK exiting the EU to work - I really do. I have children who will suffer if it does not - I do not think I will particularly suffer financially if it goes wrong - but my children will - so I want this exit to succeed. Whether you believe me or not - well I can't change that.

I do however have a worry that a hard exit and (very?) controlled and restricted immigration will make the UK a less pleasant place in which to live as every 'foreigner' becomes for some a potential illegal immigrant; every current non-UK EU citizen remaining in the UK will become someone who - to some - should be 'going home' and who will feel 'unwanted'. I very much hope I am wrong and that the christian values that underpin UK laws, culture and behaviours will prevail. The majority - 64% according to a poll last year seem to still believe we are a christian country - we'll see how christian we are in practice over the coming years.

At this stage we have no real idea what form our Brexit will take and I, for one, would not expect to.

Speeches and statements can be made at party conferences but we should all realise who is the target audience for those and that they cannot nor should not be specific on our negotiating position.

In any deal we none of us would declare our bottom line before sitting down with the other party.

Personally I do not foresee very much changing with regard to social legislation, perhaps some tinkering but nothing fundamental. Obviously there will be changes to immigration rules but then I think that, in the not too distant future, that will be the case throughout Europe.

As a continent we cannot continue with the current systems which help no one, specifically including those from conflict zones who are most in need of our help.

But we all have no option now other than to wait and see the details of any deal with the EU as it unfolds. After all no political party has a manifesto position on this to which they can be held to account.

Our judgement will have to be retrospective in 2020.

 

[SocketRocket]

May decided to run for leadership in wake of the Leave vote, so people will expect her to fulfil the Leave campaign promises.

Especially as all the key ministers in the Department for Brexit were prominent in the Leave campaign.

Does she also have to fulfill the promises from the Remainers? Ensure that every Household is £4,300 worse off, ensure there is a recession, scrap millions of jobs, lower house prices, put up food prices, build Jungle Camps in Dover, Put up mortgage rates, Oh! and start world war III.

 

[SocketRocket]

Except we know that both aircraft will be mid-flight, and that our passenger's current aircraft is not going to land and stop to enable one passenger to change aircraft. So the passenger has somehow to get from one aircraft to another - mid-flight. Besides - I'm not sure our passenger will be happy to book a flight on an aircraft that is not guaranteed to have wings. I suppose it could be a balloon - floats about the place rather slowly and direction and speed rather subject to the vagaries of the weather - and we cannot control the weather.

In truth I am pretty fed up of this 'it'll be alright on the night - just stop whinging you Remoaners' as we head for a 'full cut hard exit' from the EU and the Single Market - which is what May seems to have gone for (despite her and her chancellor being Remainers - which might have make you think she'd go 'soft option') - and so I think I'll just do a gradual conscious uncoupling from this whole debate.

The plane has landed and the new one is not scheduled until 2019 and I did say it would have wings, seats and an engine. No one needs to jump out but if you feel like trying it as an option then the worlds your oyster.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

At this stage we have no real idea what form our Brexit will take and I, for one, would not expect to.

Speeches and statements can be made at party conferences but we should all realise who is the target audience for those and that they cannot nor should not be specific on our negotiating position.

In any deal we none of us would declare our bottom line before sitting down with the other party.

Personally I do not foresee very much changing with regard to social legislation, perhaps some tinkering but nothing fundamental. Obviously there will be changes to immigration rules but then I think that, in the not too distant future, that will be the case throughout Europe.

As a continent we cannot continue with the current systems which help no one, specifically including those from conflict zones who are most in need of our help.

But we all have no option now other than to wait and see the details of any deal with the EU as it unfolds. After all no political party has a manifesto position on this to which they can be held to account.

Our judgement will have to be retrospective in 2020.

yup - that's it. Fingers crossed. And I do hope the good people of Sunderland won't then be regretting things if the new Qashqai finds a home in France...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The plane has landed and the new one is not scheduled until 2019 and I did say it would have wings, seats and an engine. No one needs to jump out but if you feel like trying it as an option then the worlds your oyster.

My point is that the EU will not stop for us to decide what to do - it will keep moving.

The ECJ will be delivering rulings that will be changing EU legislation as our EU exit progresses and after the Great Repeal Act of 2017 (btw - please dear PM scrap that silly moniker you have given it) is passed and enacted. And so the EU legislation that will be enshrined in UK law by GRA17 (as is going to happen) - but then controlled by the UK gov - will become out of date as we decide what to do with each and every bit of it - and then must decide whether to update it in accordance with what the ECJ determines for the single market. However since we n ow know that Westminster is not going to be subordinate to the ECJ, then it would appear that we will not align with the EU legislation as required to be part of the single market.

Seems a hard exit is on the way, no matter - that's what we want that's what we'll get.

I'm OK with that

 

[Deleted member 18588]

My point is that the EU will not stop for us to decide what to do - it will keep moving.

The ECJ will be delivering rulings that will be changing EU legislation as our EU exit progresses and after the Great Repeal Act of 2017 (btw - please dear PM scrap that silly moniker you have given it) is passed and enacted. And so the EU legislation that will be enshrined in UK law by GRA17 (as is going to happen) - but then controlled by the UK gov - will become out of date as we decide what to do with each and every bit of it - and then must decide whether to update it in accordance with what the ECJ determines for the single market. However since we n ow know that Westminster is not going to be subordinate to the ECJ, then it would appear that we will not align with the EU legislation as required to be part of the single market.

Seems a hard exit is on the way, no matter - that's what we want that's what we'll get.

I'm OK with that

What we have to realise is that the EU itself is in a mess.

There is growing dissatisfaction with the institution in a number of the longer established members. Discontent over immigration in a number of the newer members in the East of Europe, who feel that they are the gateway. A fear of creeping federalisation among many. A loss of a net contributor in the UK.

I really think that we would have been better served by voting Remain but we should not kid ourselves that the EU hold all the trump cards or that everything is rosy in that particular garden.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What we have to realise is that the EU itself is in a mess.

There is growing dissatisfaction with the institution in a number of the longer established members. Discontent over immigration in a number of the newer members in the East of Europe, who feel that they are the gateway. A fear of creeping federalisation among many. A loss of a net contributor in the UK.

I really think that we would have been better served by voting Remain but we should not kid ourselves that the EU hold all the trump cards or that everything is rosy in that particular garden.

I'm OK with that case.

I can't but not have the two areas of concern that I have.

That it doesn't work that great - and my children suffer. But they are fortunate as they have us to fall back on for the coming 40yrs (I hope) - but many the children of the less well off and poor do not have that life jacket.

Secondly - with closed borders - that immigrants EU and nonEU - and both those that are current residents and those that might be able to comer in the future - are not assimilated into our society as well as they (generally) have over the last 50yrs. And that for a minority of the 'indigenous' population (however that is defined in the future) the simple fact of 'another' being an immigrant or clearly of 'immigrant stock/background', their very presence in the UK will bring on suspicion and resentment - and a more fractured, angry and selfish society will develop.

I hope neither of the above come to pass.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I'm OK with that case.

I can't but not have the two areas of concern that I have.

That it doesn't work that great - and my children suffer. But they are fortunate as they have us to fall back on for the coming 40yrs (I hope) - but many the children of the less well off and poor do not have that life jacket.

Secondly - with closed borders - that immigrants EU and nonEU - and both those that are current residents and those that might be able to comer in the future - are not assimilated into our society as well as they (generally) have over the last 50yrs. And that for a minority of the 'indigenous' population (however that is defined in the future) the simple fact of 'another' being an immigrant or clearly of 'immigrant stock/background', their very presence in the UK will bring on suspicion and resentment - and a more fractured, angry and selfish society will develop.

I hope neither of the above come to pass.

I share your hopes and concerns for the future, after all I have grandchildren as well as children to consider.

However, I suggest that they are unlikely to be faced with anything worse than we did in the 70's with rampant inflation peaking at 24% and soaring unemployment.

I am not suggesting that there will not be difficulties but I remain confident that as a nation we will overcome them.

As for the situation surrounding immigrants I fear that there is a problem there of our own making. For years people's concerns, whether they were justified or not, were not addressed by any of our major political parties for fear of being viewed as racist. Without living in one of the areas where immigration levels are high it is hard to assess how much assimilation there has been.

In my home city of Birmingham there are districts that, superficially at least, have become "ghettoised" and thus integration does not seem to have been achieved.

I may be idealistic but I feel that if we are to avoid the growth in xenophobia and hate you fear then we must, as a society, engage in a grown-up and open debate on immigration to enable the fears of some to be addressed.

 

[SocketRocket]

My point is that the EU will not stop for us to decide what to do - it will keep moving.

The ECJ will be delivering rulings that will be changing EU legislation as our EU exit progresses and after the Great Repeal Act of 2017 (btw - please dear PM scrap that silly moniker you have given it) is passed and enacted. And so the EU legislation that will be enshrined in UK law by GRA17 (as is going to happen) - but then controlled by the UK gov - will become out of date as we decide what to do with each and every bit of it - and then must decide whether to update it in accordance with what the ECJ determines for the single market. However since we n ow know that Westminster is not going to be subordinate to the ECJ, then it would appear that we will not align with the EU legislation as required to be part of the single market.

Seems a hard exit is on the way, no matter - that's what we want that's what we'll get.

I'm OK with that

You worry too much about these things. How do you think all these other countries that are not members trade with the EU? They don't have all these laws to consider.

You talk about the EU moving on and not waiting for us. Why should we want them to wait for us when we become an independent country, we will be moving on all by our selves and without restrictions.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You worry too much about these things. How do you think all these other countries that are not members trade with the EU? They don't have all these laws to consider.

You talk about the EU moving on and not waiting for us. Why should we want them to wait for us when we become an independent country, we will be moving on all by our selves and without restrictions.

That's alright then - so all that talk of countries paying to be part of the single market; to have to adopt EU standards and legislation to trade with it; to have to accept free movement to be part of it - none of that is true - or I was not listening or too prejudiced to hear.

Fair enough. Gonna be a piece of cake sorting out our trade agreements in that case.

 

[SocketRocket]

That's alright then - so all that talk of countries paying to be part of the single market; to have to adopt EU standards and legislation to trade with it; to have to accept free movement to be part of it - none of that is true - or I was not listening or too prejudiced to hear.

Fair enough. Gonna be a piece of cake sorting out our trade agreements in that case.

All those countries? Do you mean Norway?

You currently only pay and accept free movement if you want to be a member of the single market, most of the world are not members of the single market but still trade with the EU successfully.

You or I dont know what the final position will be after negotiations at this time so we will have to wait and see how they transpire. The UK is not Norway and hold a number of aces that will put them in a strong position to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.