Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[MegaSteve]

Number one priority is NOT to sell out the fishing folk for a short term gain...

 

[Mudball]

Last night euromillion.. UK won 350m ... set for life now ..

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Number one priority is NOT to sell out the fishing folk for a short term gain...

Is that really the number one priority ?

Surely the number one priority is gaining valuable trade deals with the EU and then others that we need to cover the ones we lost.

The fishing folk remember were sold out in the 80’s by Thatcher and of course the British firms who sold their quota to Spanish firms and they certainly seem to be able to catch their fair share at the moment

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just showing you how pathetic it is putting up videos like this.
Maybe my next post should be to see how many of your bucket list you have transgressed yourself. ?

You crack on - most of them cover you

The “video” you put up was from how long ago and from a young girl who doesn’t understand it all - no shame in that and I suspect she has a long time left in here life to learn

The multiple interviews the broadcasters last run along the same theme - yet your first suggestion was that the people they interviewed on live telly were suffering from learning difficulties ?‍ - you are totally closed off to the clear idea that there are people out there who really didn’t understand the process and were sucked in by the main “tag lines” “buses” “ukip” and red rag headlines - they jumped on things like “get our country back” etc -

how much that had an affect I have no idea but a lot were sold a vision of the future - and many from areas that have suffered over the decades from the loss of industries etc etc and instead of looking at our own successive governments for blame they listened to people like Farage who put all the blame for the Uk ills on the EU - so soon they won’t be in the chain and If these industries and jobs don’t return who will they blame then -

let’s hope they haven’t been sold false hope and dreams and the UK government continues to provide these areas with the fundings they got from the EU grants.

 

[Hobbit]

You crack on - most of them cover you

The “video” you put up was from how long ago and from a young girl who doesn’t understand it all - no shame in that and I suspect she has a long time left in here life to learn

The multiple interviews the broadcasters last run along the same theme - yet your first suggestion was that the people they interviewed on live telly were suffering from learning difficulties ?‍ - you are totally closed off to the clear idea that there are people out there who really didn’t understand the process and were sucked in by the main “tag lines” “buses” “ukip” and red rag headlines - they jumped on things like “get our country back” etc -

how much that had an affect I have no idea but a lot were sold a vision of the future - and many from areas that have suffered over the decades from the loss of industries etc etc and instead of looking at our own successive governments for blame they listened to people like Farage who put all the blame for the Uk ills on the EU - so soon they won’t be in the chain and If these industries and jobs don’t return who will they blame then -

let’s hope they haven’t been sold false hope and dreams and the UK government continues to provide these areas with the fundings they got from the EU grants.

There's mileage on both sides of the argument, and pointing fingers at successive govts isn't too far from the truth. But have a look at the EU's own rules for grants and loans, then look at their own investigation into the loans and grants they provided to Jag/LR for them to open a plan in the Czech Republic. Personally, I think the EU totally broke the rules but hey, they carried out an investigation and said they didn't - the Police policing themselves - yeah right.

You could, if you are that fussed, have a look at the grants and loans, and the carbon off setting payments, Tata Steel got when they closed the plant on Teesside and opened a new one in the Netherlands.

Truthfully, successive govts have badly let down the north but so to has the EU, irrespective of whatever propaganda the EU and Remain threw out there. #Remainvoter

 

[drdel]

Liverpoolphil said:
Right now the UK still need to abide by E.U. laws etc without having a say in them

Yup you're right but one of the issues I have with the EU is that it is the unelected crowd in Brussels who decide on the 'Law(s)' to be brought forward for 'rubber'stamping by the elected Parliament members who may have a veto but little else. I'd guess that bringing a 'new' law, that's not already in-train, would take more that the remaining period of our membership.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There's mileage on both sides of the argument, and pointing fingers at successive govts isn't too far from the truth. But have a look at the EU's own rules for grants and loans, then look at their own investigation into the loans and grants they provided to Jag/LR for them to open a plan in the Czech Republic. Personally, I think the EU totally broke the rules but hey, they carried out an investigation and said they didn't - the Police policing themselves - yeah right.

You could, if you are that fussed, have a look at the grants and loans, and the carbon off setting payments, Tata Steel got when they closed the plant on Teesside and opened a new one in the Netherlands.

Truthfully, successive govts have badly let down the north but so to has the EU, irrespective of whatever propaganda the EU and Remain threw out there. #Remainvoter

There is no doubt at all that the EU are far from guilt free with their desire to “balance” things across their members especially when countries don’t help themselves first and there is a lot the EU need to do to learn from mistakes made. The car industry is still huge around the UK but I do fear for it unless there is a good trade deal.

Tata steels issues - well prob started way back when privatisation started but then that’s the same with all the areas that were under control of the government. A lot of blame of both sides

But one side has now gone - so no more hiding from our government, Faith has been put in them to bring the good life to all in the UK and not just the south

 

[drdel]

^^^ Its time to get worried

Looks like the thread 'may' be moving towards a sensible debate

 

[Hobbit]

There is no doubt at all that the EU are far from guilt free with their desire to “balance” things across their members especially when countries don’t help themselves first and there is a lot the EU need to do to learn from mistakes made. The car industry is still huge around the UK but I do fear for it unless there is a good trade deal.

Tata steels issues - well prob started way back when privatisation started but then that’s the same with all the areas that were under control of the government. A lot of blame of both sides

But one side has now gone - so no more hiding from our government, Faith has been put in them to bring the good life to all in the UK and not just the south

One of the things people forget is that subsidies by EU member states to businesses within their own country are almost impossible - the rules don't allow it. But the EU, and member states, can entice companies to set up in a country. The EU rule(s) don't allow poaching of businesses from one country to another..... Tata got thousands of millions, £664m just for the carbon offsetting by closing a plant, to set up in the Netherlands.

What JLR and Tata have done isn't the fault of the UK govts of the day. I'll lay that one firmly at the EU's doorstep, and that's why in the steel towns in the NE the Leave had great support - and I absolutely support them in that, even as a Remainer. As you say the EU aren't guilt free, and have gone too far in moving industry around the EU member states.

Just a quick edit. Forget the car industry aspect of the debate, or at least view it carefully. Car manufacturers globally are all suffering. In the US the economy has been growing at around 15%-20% yet the car industry has shrunk by 17%.

 

[drdel]

One of the things people forget is that subsidies by EU member states to businesses within their own country are almost impossible - the rules don't allow it. But the EU, and member states, can entice companies to set up in a country. The EU rule(s) don't allow poaching of businesses from one country to another..... Tata got thousands of millions, £664m just for the carbon offsetting by closing a plant, to set up in the Netherlands.

What JLR and Tata have done isn't the fault of the UK govts of the day. I'll lay that one firmly at the EU's doorstep, and that's why in the steel towns in the NE the Leave had great support - and I absolutely support them in that, even as a Remainer. As you say the EU aren't guilt free, and have gone too far in moving industry around the EU member states.

Just a quick edit. Forget the car industry aspect of the debate, or at least view it carefully. Car manufacturers globally are all suffering. In the US the economy has been growing at around 15%-20% yet the car industry has shrunk by 17%.

I agree. On the face of it, spreading 'wealth' across the member states seems a good social policy/idea. Unfortunately the economies of the 27 are too diverse and thus the consequence has led to a chase to the lowest common denominator and the attempt to increase internal market demand through the borrowing. Then there is the cost of running the 'centre' which has dragged money out of the system.

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

I agree. On the face of it, spreading 'wealth' across the member states seems a good social policy/idea. Unfortunately the economies of the 27 are too diverse and thus the consequence has led to a chase to the lowest common denominator and the attempt to increase internal market demand through the borrowing. Then there is the cost of running the 'centre' which has dragged money out of the system.

There are more considerations to the Brexit than I as an American ever realized.

 

[drdel]

There are more considerations to the Brexit than I as an American ever realized.

But a lot less twist and turns than 'impeachment'

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

But a lot less twist and turns than 'impeachment'

The current proceedings on that issue are and have been since the beginning a disgrace.

We are a very polarized nation, and our 233 year old democracy shows its age in comparison to more modern parliamentary systems in otherwise much older nations.
Our bicameral system doesn't include a House of Lords which is essentially a bar open after hours. I wish that we had that instead of what we actually have.
That's a Senate which, due to our federal system, vastly over-represents the most socially regressive elements of our society.

The American Republic is quite literally in existential danger.

 

[Old Skier]

But a lot less twist and turns than 'impeachment'

Same rules thought. The bully boys do what they want

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

Same rules though. The bully boys do what they want

I have to agree.

 

[Old Skier]

Shame that some remainers are reverting to type all over social media.

 

[drdel]

The current proceedings on that issue are and have been since the beginning a disgrace.

We are a very polarized nation, and our 233 year old democracy shows its age in comparison to more modern parliamentary systems in otherwise much older nations.
Our bicameral system doesn't include a House of Lords which is essentially a bar open after hours. I wish that we had that instead of what we actually have.
That's a Senate which, due to our federal system, vastly over-represents the most socially regressive elements of our society.

The American Republic is quite literally in existential danger.

Pretty much like everywhere else - follow the money and you might find the truth.

 

[SocketRocket]

You crack on - most of them cover you

The “video” you put up was from how long ago and from a young girl who doesn’t understand it all - no shame in that and I suspect she has a long time left in here life to learn

The multiple interviews the broadcasters last run along the same theme - yet your first suggestion was that the people they interviewed on live telly were suffering from learning difficulties ?‍ - you are totally closed off to the clear idea that there are people out there who really didn’t understand the process and were sucked in by the main “tag lines” “buses” “ukip” and red rag headlines - they jumped on things like “get our country back” etc -

how much that had an affect I have no idea but a lot were sold a vision of the future - and many from areas that have suffered over the decades from the loss of industries etc etc and instead of looking at our own successive governments for blame they listened to people like Farage who put all the blame for the Uk ills on the EU - so soon they won’t be in the chain and If these industries and jobs don’t return who will they blame then -

let’s hope they haven’t been sold false hope and dreams and the UK government continues to provide these areas with the fundings they got from the EU grants.

The video was simply to show you how pathetic it is to use such rubbish to portray people with a different view as stupid and uneducated.

You do reaiIse the UK has been a net contributor to the EU and as such any grants they received was only some of their own money coming back.

You talk as if the UK governments while we were EU members produced a land of milk and honey and now we've left they have to do better somehow. Whether were in or out we will only do well as a country by business/industry being effective and successful, our government needs to assist and not hamper them. We lost industries while members of the EU but I dont blame all of it on the them, most of it has been caused by lack of investment in modern plant and equipment and many years of union intransigence. A nations wealth will never be decided by being a member of a protectionist union of countries ruled by a monolith civil service. We now have a new opportunity to better our lot and hopefully we can do it despite the defeatests and bitter whingers who will never be content with anything outside the EU.

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

I assume "remainers" are the people who wanted to stay in, right?

In diverse nations like the United States and the United Kingdom, people have best interests that actually don't coincide.
I can understand how Brexit would seem beneficial to some people in England, for example, while causing issues like re-instating an Ireland-Northern Ireland border.

Our polarization is quite beyond that level.
People with Coastal Values and Middle American Values don't merely disagree.
They've come to truly loathe each other.
That's why I believe the American republic is in existential stress.

As inconceivable as it may seem now, I don't think that partition is out of the question in a generation or two.
It happened in the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia
Scotland and Quebec have both had very close separation votes.
It seems to be the way of the future.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The video was simply to show you how pathetic it is to use such rubbish to portray people with a different view as stupid and uneducated.

The videos show that many people didn’t have a clue what they were voting for ( something which always gets dismissed ) and also people voted purely to get rid of immigrants ( something that always gets dismissed )

You do reaiIse the UK has been a net contributor to the EU and as such any grants they received was only some of their own money coming back.

You keep saying that as if it makes it all better ?

Eu grants forced the UK into putting money into areas that previously they weren’t bothered about because they were outside the London financial hub areas -

why did these areas have to go down the line of EU grants - because their own government did nothing for them - areas under “managed decline” , areas left to rot with no investment from their own government - well now they need to fully fund all these projects that the EU grants covered - should be ok , plenty of money back in the coffers to go around the whole of the UK

You talk as if the UK governments while we were EU members produced a land of milk and honey and now we've left they have to do better somehow.

Do they not have to better then ? Is that not a critical reason for leaving ? To do better on our own.

Whether were in or out we will only do well as a country by business/industry being effective and successful, our government needs to assist and not hamper them. We lost industries while members of the EU but I dont blame all of it on the them, most of it has been caused by lack of investment in modern plant and equipment and many years of union intransigence. A nations wealth will never be decided by being a member of a protectionist union of countries ruled by a monolith civil service. We now have a new opportunity to better our lot and hopefully we can do it despite the defeatests and bitter whingers who will never be content with anything outside the EU.

“Bitter whingers” - For someone who very quick to point fingers at others for using derogatory comments you are the first to use them yourself - maybe before you start to ask for comments to stop you should being a hypocrite and look in the mirror and see all the issues you yourself have caused on here - of course you won’t , you arrogance doesn’t allow it. Don’t think there is anything worthwhile for you left to say now.