Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[harpo_72]

Mmm, my experience is that there's a fair few Remainers who didn't know what they were voting for. I even have an aunt who said she voted Remain because she "likes that nice Mr Cameron." Your bias is horrendous. I think O'Brien show should have been required listening. What an obnoxious toad of a man. I'd equate him with Farage in the blink of an eye.

That’s true .. quite a lot of the Russian voters knew they wanted to leave 😉, sorry couldn’t resist!
We have had 3 years and I suspect some have changed their minds because both sides haven’t covered themselves in glory

 

[Hobbit]

I knew exactly what I was voting for - for the day after the referendum. The same as the day before.

What then might happen and develop at least we would be on the inside with some degree of influence. If things subsequently changed in a way that I did not like then in time we'd have another opportunity to decide whether to stay in or not. We'd have regular 5 yearly opportunities for Westminster and EU parliament elections to make sure that the parties wanting to be our government knew just what we wanted of the EU. And they would have to listen.

My bias is indeed perhaps verging on absolute. I think leaving is a terrible mistake with misunderstood and misrepresented reasons and consequences of doing so - where we will lose things that we currently have with little tangible benefit for the ordinary individual in return; and with the risk of consequences that are most likely to harm only those less able to cope.

Yes - I will lose some freedoms of travel, and perhaps my pension will be hit - however I am very fortunate to be able to afford holidays and to have a half decent pension fund. I am quite comfortable. Leaving will not really affect me significantly. But very many are not so fortunate - and when they feel the pain with little of what they expected in return - our divided society will hurt even more and the anger will grow. My concerns for the future are more social than economic - in time the country will find it's new place wherever that is. I am less certain about society.

On O'Brien - O'Brien can be abrupt and condescending - but he aims to have the debate based upon fact and truth - and he will not hesitate to expose those who use falsehoods and unsubstantiated fact to support their arguments. He is clear that his sympathy sits with the lied to and he is highly critical of the liars and deceivers. Why do government ministers go on Ferrari and not on O'Brien? - because they know they will be exposed by O'Brien.

I am sorry that you find my bias horrendous - it is what it is - but my view is simply driven by concern.

Your view is driven by concern for yourself, and yourself only. You measure the outcome by your own metrics, not anyone else's(verging on absolute), hence it is your concern only. And by your own admission O'Brien is abrupt and condescending yet you love him to bits, although I've not heard you quote him for quite a while.

I doubt you'll ever convince me otherwise. You are Farage in Remain clothing.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your view is driven by concern for yourself, and yourself only. You measure the outcome by your own metrics, not anyone else's(verging on absolute), hence it is your concern only. And by your own admission O'Brien is abrupt and condescending yet you love him to bits, although I've not heard you quote him for quite a while.

I doubt you'll ever convince me otherwise. You are Farage in Remain clothing.

My view is absolutely not driven by any concerns for myself - I have no such concerns.

But I am guilty as accused of repetition and so cease.

 

[SocketRocket]

My view is absolutely not driven by any concerns for myself - I have no such concerns.

But I am guilty as accused of repetition and so cease.

I do hope so. It will prevent others from repeating the same old contrary views to you over and over.

 

[Hobbit]

My view is absolutely not driven by any concerns for myself - I have no such concerns.

But I am guilty as accused of repetition and so cease.

Here's a thought Hugh. I confronted your beliefs and behaviours. I likened them to extremes. I didn't engage and ask you questions about them. I didn't ask you to explain and qualify them, and I didn't offer a moderating view.

If you tell someone you think they are ignorant, deluded, racist, blinkered, lied to(gullible), insular and selfish you will get their back up. You've attacked the people they believe in. They will defend their beliefs and they will fight back. You haven't engaged with them, debated with them nor asked the rhetorical questions that will lead them to analyse their beliefs. And most importantly, you will not change them nor get them to look at compromises.

You've asked for compromise in the past but you haven't asked the important questions that will lead them to soften their position. You yourself haven't modified your position from Remain. You've spoken of accepting the result but when pushed you revert to you absolutely don't want it. May came back with a BRINO, but still you attacked it. Johnson came back with a compromise deal, especially on the NI issue, and you attacked it. You won't accept the compromises they achieved, and you won't meet them halfway, and BRINO is more than halfway. And I suspect that Johnson's deal is May's reheated and is more than halfway.

I digress. For Brexit not to happen you need the Brexiteers to change their minds, and you won't achieve that whilst you continually attack their fundamental position and beliefs. If anything you only reinforce their beliefs.

 

[harpo_72]

Here's a thought Hugh. I confronted your beliefs and behaviours. I likened them to extremes. I didn't engage and ask you questions about them. I didn't ask you to explain and qualify them, and I didn't offer a moderating view.

If you tell someone you think they are ignorant, deluded, racist, blinkered, lied to(gullible), insular and selfish you will get their back up. You've attacked the people they believe in. They will defend their beliefs and they will fight back. You haven't engaged with them, debated with them nor asked the rhetorical questions that will lead them to analyse their beliefs. And most importantly, you will not change them nor get them to look at compromises.

You've asked for compromise in the past but you haven't asked the important questions that will lead them to soften their position. You yourself haven't modified your position from Remain. You've spoken of accepting the result but when pushed you revert to you absolutely don't want it. May came back with a BRINO, but still you attacked it. Johnson came back with a compromise deal, especially on the NI issue, and you attacked it. You won't accept the compromises they achieved, and you won't meet them halfway, and BRINO is more than halfway. And I suspect that Johnson's deal is May's reheated and is more than halfway.

I digress. For Brexit not to happen you need the Brexiteers to change their minds, and you won't achieve that whilst you continually attack their fundamental position and beliefs. If anything you only reinforce their beliefs.

Likewise with remainers ... those who feel pushed in any way will bury their heads deeper in the sand.
But others on here have questioned the validity of brexit and the promises made, even remarked on the strategy and the responses have not been very forthcoming or intellectual.
The point is this, those who want change really need to justify change, that reason for change becomes valid when it's proven to be correct.
There have been some good points made on here but on the whole it's just been a bunch of middle age to retired men just lecturing each other with "I know best".
I don't think we have a female voice here ...

 

[Old Skier]

As a leaver I have never said anything else other than not knowing what the future holds. Change has never bothered me, possibly because of the way my personal life has gone but when I ask a remainer what the future holds most say it's going to be the same old same old and cannot admit that they have no idea. So in the end, some remain arguments are not better than mine.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

As a leaver I have never said anything else other than not knowing what the future holds. Change has never bothered me, possibly because of the way my personal life has gone but when I ask a remainer what the future holds most say it's going to be the same old same old and cannot admit that they have no idea. So in the end, some remain arguments are not better than mine.

Fair one, it’s no different to me voting Leave and not wanting a No Deal scenario, I don’t want that because of the possible unknown damage.
But as you say, at the same time the remain option also came with no future guarantees.

 

[harpo_72]

As a leaver I have never said anything else other than not knowing what the future holds. Change has never bothered me, possibly because of the way my personal life has gone but when I ask a remainer what the future holds most say it's going to be the same old same old and cannot admit that they have no idea. So in the end, some remain arguments are not better than mine.

Some people have a lot going on in their lives (although we could stand on the side lines and think ... really?) the point is, this could change and upset what they perceive to be an equilibrium .. so same old same old means please don't add another variable there are enough to deal with at the moment.
That argument should not be dismissed, it should be respected and if you wish to debate it ask them to put it into context.
We are all different and we all react to change differently.
Some people are very good at forecasting and know what that change will bring and they can tell you how it will impact them and their dearest. They may deem it to be harmless or a danger. Either way that has to be investigated.

 

[Old Skier]

My only point was that there will be change in the EU and it's not going to be same old same old yet nobody can say what impact the changes in the EU will have

 

[harpo_72]

My only point was that there will be change in the EU and it's not going to be same old same old yet nobody can say what impact the changes in the EU will have

There will be changes, but how big is the direct impact to us ? What do you think will be the direct impact to the common person ? The point is how seismic will these changes be ... and that is where the debate is .. a remainer will see that the change level will be insignificant if we remain and if we leave the change level could well hit the red with impacts to movement, finances, and quality of living and job prospects .. Spin it round as a leaver and think if we stayed how big an impact does that have .. (you will have to fill in the gaps here, as you had these concerns and wanted to leave, because I cannot verbalise them for you or would not do them justice)

 

[SocketRocket]

I prefer us to leave with a good free trade deal that is in the best interests of all parties but not one that includes any kind of regulatory alignment, free movement or that affects our legal independence. I do appreciate that others will have different preferences and respect their view, believe it or not I dont go out looking to belittle or insult people who would prefer to remain in the EU although I feel its fair in a Forum to reply with like where your views are attacked and even rubbished. I would much prefer a reasoned debate with people, its OK for the odd joke or light hearted banter but many of us have been drawn into a war of attrition against each other and such that there are some quite bad feeling and axes to grind. The last few weeks have seen an escalation and blood pressures rising and looking back I am just as much to blame as the next man for this. Maybe we can all make an effort to be a little more understanding of others views and although questioning them at times we can refrain from the name calling and attempts to belittle. I openly apologise for any offence intended or otherwise.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I prefer us to leave with a good free trade deal that is in the best interests of all parties but not one that includes any kind of regulatory alignment, free movement or that affects our legal independence. I do appreciate that others will have different preferences and respect their view, believe it or not I dont go out looking to belittle or insult people who would prefer to remain in the EU although I feel its fair in a Forum to reply with like where your views are attacked and even rubbished. I would much prefer a reasoned debate with people, its OK for the odd joke or light hearted banter but many of us have been drawn into a war of attrition against each other and such that there are some quite bad feeling and axes to grind. The last few weeks have seen an escalation and blood pressures rising and looking back I am just as much to blame as the next man for this. Maybe we can all make an effort to be a little more understanding of others views and although questioning them at times we can refrain from the name calling and attempts to belittle. I openly apologise for any offence intended or otherwise.

Likewise...

 

[spongebob59]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1195034069677023232

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Vote Leave, so England can win the World Cup.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1194966699621208064

 

[Hobbit]

Vote Leave, so England can win the World Cup.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1194966699621208064

Damn, wish I'd voted Leave! Another 60+ years of hurt...?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Damn, wish I'd voted Leave! Another 60+ years of hurt...?

That’s a Government Minister mate, no mention of Scotland, Wales or NI though Or the fact we already have control of non-eu immigration.
Let’s hope Doon miss’s the post.

 

[Hobbit]

That’s a Government Minister mate, no mention of Scotland, Wales or NI though Or the fact we already have control of non-eu immigration.
Let’s hope Doon miss’s the post.

He might hit the corner flag

 

[ger147]

He might hit the corner flag

He's a Hearts fan, hitting the corner flag would be progress...

 

[drdel]

I see Brussels intend to ask for an additional ~£20m from member states to cover their costs of promoting the EU and staffing EU elections in the UK. Its not a lot but apparently they forgot to make a provision for the expenditure in their budgeting.

This comes while members are trying to cut their own expenditure against a background where Brussels has hiked their own planned expenditure way above inflation. - r27 aren't happy.

I wonder how much they might think of 'fining' the UK for not appointing our representative? - anyone venture a guess...