Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[bluewolf]

Oh, how very droll and not the slightest bit clever.
I do have my own mind ............................. (if you remember).

I haven’t really seen enough evidence of that to confirm yet.

 

[bluewolf]

Exactly. There is a readily identifiable group here attacking Boris as if he is the only politician who has lied. So, ok, those supporting a political party or cause are likely to call the opposition politicians liars generally, at times. Goes with the territory.
As it happens, I think they all do so at one time or another.
What I am objecting to is when a specific incident is picked out as a lie, and having a laugh about it, when any fair minded person knows it wasn't.
Boris said he, as head of the Government, would take us out on 31st.
He said that would happen if he got a deal, and he made it clear it would happen if he didn't get a deal.
And when he said it the Government was in control of that decision.
The HoC knew it, the EU knew it and so did the public.
Then the unprecedented happened. The speaker allowed some members to take the House's order of business away from the Government's control and
they schemed for and created a law forbidding the Prime minister from leaving on 31st with no deal.
If he did , he would become a criminal. They knew that no PM would do that.
Now all they had to do was ensure that if he came back with a deal to be approved by the House that they would continue their unholy alliance and vote it down. Which they did.

Then when the Oct 31st date passed, they start to crow , like you lot are doing now, that he broke his promise.
You are twisting the truth- shame on you.

Far be it from little old me to disabuse you of your very lovely little pet theory, but if what you say is the truth, then why on earth did he keep saying it, even when it became blindly obvious, to anyone but the most vociferous Katie Hopkins supporter, that it wasn’t ever going to happen?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Exactly. There is a readily identifiable group here attacking Boris as if he is the only politician who has lied. So, ok, those supporting a political party or cause are likely to call the opposition politicians liars generally, at times. Goes with the territory.
As it happens, I think they all do so at one time or another.
What I am objecting to is when a specific incident is picked out as a lie, and having a laugh about it, when any fair minded person knows it wasn't.
Boris said he, as head of the Government, would take us out on 31st.
He said that would happen if he got a deal, and he made it clear it would happen if he didn't get a deal.
And when he said it the Government was in control of that decision.
The HoC knew it, the EU knew it and so did the public.
Then the unprecedented happened. The speaker allowed some members to take the House's order of business away from the Government's control and
they schemed for and created a law forbidding the Prime minister from leaving on 31st with no deal.
If he did , he would become a criminal. They knew that no PM would do that.
Now all they had to do was ensure that if he came back with a deal to be approved by the House that they would continue their unholy alliance and vote it down. Which they did.

Then when the Oct 31st date passed, they start to crow , like you lot are doing now, that he broke his promise.
You are twisting the truth- shame on you.

The Government were not in control, they had a -44 minority.
That is how democracy works and the speaker was absolutely correct to allow the HoC to drive the agenda.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Exactly. There is a readily identifiable group here attacking Boris as if he is the only politician who has lied. So, ok, those supporting a political party or cause are likely to call the opposition politicians liars generally, at times. Goes with the territory.
As it happens, I think they all do so at one time or another.
What I am objecting to is when a specific incident is picked out as a lie, and having a laugh about it, when any fair minded person knows it wasn't.
Boris said he, as head of the Government, would take us out on 31st.
He said that would happen if he got a deal, and he made it clear it would happen if he didn't get a deal.
And when he said it the Government was in control of that decision.
The HoC knew it, the EU knew it and so did the public.
Then the unprecedented happened. The speaker allowed some members to take the House's order of business away from the Government's control and
they schemed for and created a law forbidding the Prime minister from leaving on 31st with no deal.
If he did , he would become a criminal. They knew that no PM would do that.
Now all they had to do was ensure that if he came back with a deal to be approved by the House that they would continue their unholy alliance and vote it down. Which they did.

Then when the Oct 31st date passed, they start to crow , like you lot are doing now, that he broke his promise.
You are twisting the truth- shame on you.

What a fairytale! When are some of you tories going to wake up and take responsibility!

Johnson campaigned for PM on promises he knew he didn’t have control of, that damage had been done to TM by the failure of the her party to back her, there were and still are tory MP’s who were never going to back his stance.

So instead of looking inwards and seeing how the behaviour of tory MP’s has affected their own party some continually blame everyone else in parliament.

This disgrace didn’t start when boris came in, it started when cameron refused to allow any preparation for Leave victory, to TM calling a vanity GE etc etc.

Only one party and party alone had all the cards stacked in their favour time and time again they failed to use it.

 

[MegaSteve]

By all accounts politicians don't lie... They are merely "economical with the truth" ... Some more so than others...

 

[bluewolf]

Anyway, moving on. We’re not allowed to say that Boris is a liar anymore as it’s a tired cliche. So let’s all get back to calling Corbyn a terrorist 👍👍👍

 

[Hitdaball]

So Trump calling into Farages LBC show to tell us all how we should be doing Brexit whilst blowing smoke up Farages ass .

How do we all feel about that ?

 

[Hacker Khan]

So Trump calling into Farages LBC show to tell us all how we should be doing Brexit whilst blowing smoke up Farages ass .

How do we all feel about that ?

Good scoop by LBC so well played to them for that.

Realistically if you are the type of person who thinks Trump being on your side is a good thing then best of luck with that.

 

[Hitdaball]

Good scoop by LBC so well played to them for that.

Realistically if you are the type of person who thinks Trump being on your side is a good thing then best of luck with that.

I like to think of that as the “Piers Morgan” test. If he is on your side, you chose the wrong side.

Surprising lack of “stay out of our business” headlines in the mail/express though. Go figure.

 

[Slime]

I haven’t really seen enough evidence of that to confirm yet.

....................... and there it is again!
Oh, still unsurprisingly sidestepping.

 

[bluewolf]

....................... and there it is again!
Oh, still unsurprisingly sidestepping.

Sidestepping what exactly. I’ve genuinely missed whatever it is you think I’m avoiding?

 

[harpo_72]

Boris is a liar .. there is no evidence to suggest that he is not.
The ERG frustrated the May deal ..,
May went for an election to try and give her more support.
The Electorate did not give it to her
All the deals that have been offered are not as good as remaining.. this was always going to be the case. Talking of re-negotiating is pointless. 3 yrs of cobblers has gone by. Time should be called on this, if you still think a deal will happen you probably believe in the immaculate conception, fairies down the bottom of your garden, oh and Boris is honest.

 

[Slime]

Sidestepping what exactly. I’ve genuinely missed whatever it is you think I’m avoiding?

It was a Boris question, but it doesn't really matter, time has passed and momentum has been lost.
No doubt it'll rear it's inflammatory head again soon.

 

[drdel]

It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !

I’ve met him, had no dealings with him! All the discussion on his lies since last night are around his 31st Oct headline, ie Brexit!
I look forward to you going on the GE thread and reminding posters we have a JC, BJ and Brexit threads!
Or the mods could make 1 super thread, but I genuinely think there is no way to avoid overlap.

 

[bluewolf]

It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !

Stop being so precious.

Oh, and being judgemental doesn’t really do you any favours, does it?

 

[Hitdaball]

It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !

Spoken as a true centrist with no bias 🙂

 

[drdel]

I’ve met him, had no dealings with him! All the discussion on his lies since last night are around his 31st Oct headline, ie Brexit!
I look forward to you going on the GE thread and reminding posters we have a JC, BJ and Brexit threads!
Or the mods could make 1 super thread, but I genuinely think there is no way to avoid overlap.

I have met and worked with the guy but Ok, I'll bite....

To lie means there was a deliberate intention to deceive.

It is clear the PM had the intention to leave when he set his deadline of the 31st: the Cabinet worked towards that date - there was no deception. Prior to 31st he achieved a 'deal' which gained HoC support; so there is no evidence of an 'intention' to deceive because he had a no-deal plan. His actions were delayed by the HoC. Thus, on this matter, there no substance to the didactic claims he lied.

While it is correct he lied while a newspaper editor - most 'editors/pundits do! Similarly it is not hard to find evidence of lies on every PM (and a host of other national and local politicians) before him. I can't believe that most sane people go around listening to and slavishly take literally what they hear and read about politicians in the media.

I character assassination is a common lazy journalistic trait but it is pretty pointless!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I have met and worked with the guy but Ok, I'll bite....

To lie means there was a deliberate intention to deceive.

It is clear the PM had the intention to leave when he set his deadline of the 31st: the Cabinet worked towards that date - there was no deception. Prior to 31st he achieved a 'deal' which gained HoC support; so there is no evidence of an 'intention' to deceive because he had a no-deal plan. His actions were delayed by the HoC. Thus, on this matter, there no substance to the didactic claims he lied.

While it is correct he lied while a newspaper editor - most 'editors/pundits do! Similarly it is not hard to find evidence of lies on every PM (and a host of other national and local politicians) before him. I can't believe that most sane people go around listening to and slavishly take literally what they hear and read about politicians in the media.

I character assassination is a common lazy journalistic trait but it is pretty pointless!

No intent to deceive? Isn’t that saying they can say what they like with no repercussions?
He didn’t say he hoped or would try, he said he would.

He might be a changed man, now he’s PM, but he has to prove that and I’d suggest he starts with his own MP’s.
Even during the tory leader election debate the other candidates told him 31st Oct was not do-able.

He has a long history of deceitfulness and was still prone to engaging his mouth before the brain is in gear, I’m not going to suddenly trust him because he’s become PM.

 

[drdel]

Spoken as a true centrist with no bias 🙂

I voted to leave the EU so there's plenty of bias here; but I prefer playing the ball towards the goal rather than going off on tangents and personalities.