Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Lord Tyrion]

What! How many tories voted against TM after 2 years of negotiations.

Come on mate, some MP’s want to remain at any cost and some leave at any cost.
An MP is honest and we still have a go!
She would be voting in the referendum to stay.

You can't remain in a cabinet and vote against the govt. If the govt gives a free vote that is fine but if they whip the vote then they have to go if they vote against. All of the MP's voting against the TM deal were outside of govt.

I have no problem in ET saying what she did but it makes a mockery of trying to negotiate a deal that is credible if the FS wont ever entertain it. As I mentioned to Bluewolf, Labour are trying to appeal to both camps and I am not sure that can work. I don't like Jo Swinson's politics or her manner but I think the LibDems will do well because she has set out a clear stance for her party. I can see them picking up a lot of Labour voters this election.

 

[bluewolf]

I don't think you are at all wrong. The missing bit for me, and this is where I could be wrong, is that during the referendum on their deal what would their stance be? It is a fair question as surely the whole Labour team will not sit quietly and say nothing during the referendum. The initial responses I was hearing was that a number would vote against it, JC has been particularly mysterious about it. There lies the confusion for me, and many Labour MP's I've seen interviewed since.

If the negotiating team want to stay in the EU what sort of deal will get put forward? JC is trying to appease the Labour leave voters as well as the remain ones. I'm not sure that is possible to do.

It doesn't matter what their position would be. They're not voting on it. The people are voting. I would be more than happy for every MP to campaign on his/her preferred option, whatever that may be..

With regards to the abilities of the negotiating team to put together a great deal. I'm absolutely sure that the required people can be professional enough to carry out the negotiation. Give the team a set of "red lines" and allow them to negotiate a deal, then let the people vote on it..

I genuinely think that certain individuals who are pretending not to understand the Labour position are either being disingenuous or.......... Well, I'd rather not say...

 

[drdel]

It doesn't matter what their position would be. They're not voting on it. The people are voting. I would be more than happy for every MP to campaign on his/her preferred option, whatever that may be..

With regards to the abilities of the negotiating team to put together a great deal. I'm absolutely sure that the required people can be professional enough to carry out the negotiation. Give the team a set of "red lines" and allow them to negotiate a deal, then let the people vote on it..

I genuinely think that certain individuals who are pretending not to understand the Labour position are either being disingenuous or.......... Well, I'd rather not say...

I was merely pointing to the stupidity of the 6 months. The Electoral Commission need 12 weeks, after the legislation has gone through. Thats all assuming there is a set of agreed WA options with the EU!!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It doesn't matter what their position would be. They're not voting on it. The people are voting. I would be more than happy for every MP to campaign on his/her preferred option, whatever that may be..

With regards to the abilities of the negotiating team to put together a great deal. I'm absolutely sure that the required people can be professional enough to carry out the negotiation. Give the team a set of "red lines" and allow them to negotiate a deal, then let the people vote on it..

I genuinely think that certain individuals who are pretending not to understand the Labour position are either being disingenuous or.......... Well, I'd rather not say...

If that is aimed at me, I understand the position, I just don't think it is clear and clean. Voters like clear policies, they like simple lines. At the moment you have Cons = Leave, LibDems, SNP = Remain, Labour = ?

During this election there will be plenty of times voters will get asked about it and I bet more often than not they will not be sure about it. You can argue about whether they should be able to work it out but it doesn't work that way. A confused message will fail.

 

[bluewolf]

I was merely pointing to the stupidity of the 6 months. The Electoral Commission need 12 weeks, after the legislation has gone through. Thats all assuming there is a set of agreed WA options with the EU!!

I know.. It's ambitious, maybe even unlikely.. A bit like expecting Parliament to discuss and agree a withdrawal agreement in 3 days..

 

[bluewolf]

If that is aimed at me, I understand the position, I just don't think it is clear and clean. Voters like clear policies, they like simple lines. At the moment you have Cons = Leave, LibDems, SNP = Remain, Labour = ?

During this election there will be plenty of times voters will get asked about it and I bet more often than not they will not be sure about it. You can argue about whether they should be able to work it out but it doesn't work that way. A confused message will fail.

Let's agree to disagree then. I understood it completely the very first time i read it. And I'm far from the brightest bulb in the box.. It's as clear as anyone wants it to be I suppose..

 

[Old Skier]

I may be completely wrong (I frequently am), but that's a misrepresentation of the position. As far as I can remember, they said they would negotiate a "better" deal, then hold a referendum on that deal vs revoke A50. The Referendum would be legally binding this time. Once the result of the referendum was known, they would enact it.

So, either Labour's negotiated deal, or revoke Article 50. Seems fairly clear and logical to me..

Edit...From their manifesto....

What will happen in a second referendum?
A second referendum won’t be a re-run of 2016. This time the choice will be between leaving with a sensible deal or remaining in the European Union.
A Labour government will negotiate a sensible deal within three months of being elected. It will be based on the things we have long advocated and discussed with the EU; trade unions and businesses, including a new customs union, a close single market relationship and guarantees of rights and protections.
Within six months of being elected we will put that deal to a public vote, alongside remain. Two clear options, both agreed with the EU – no false promises or bluster. Labour will then carry out whatever the people decide.

Is this from there latest manifesto, strange as I didn't think Labour policy committee has met yet. My understanding was that Labour would offer a referendum but would , as a party, campaign on remain.

 

[bluewolf]

Is this from there latest manifesto, strange as I didn't think Labour policy committee has met yet. My understanding was that Labour would offer a referendum but would , as a party, campaign on remain.

It's from their own official website and is the basis for their manifesto..

And, as I stated before. It's irrelevant what they would campaign for. They could campaign to replace the European Union with 3 dogs and an old man clutching a bottle of Buckie.. What they've promised is to hold a 2nd referendum. One that is legally binding and has only 2 options. The new deal or revoke Art50. Then they would act on it.. It is very very simple..

 

[harpo_72]

I may be completely wrong (I frequently am), but that's a misrepresentation of the position. As far as I can remember, they said they would negotiate a "better" deal, then hold a referendum on that deal vs revoke A50. The Referendum would be legally binding this time. Once the result of the referendum was known, they would enact it.

So, either Labour's negotiated deal, or revoke Article 50. Seems fairly clear and logical to me..

Edit...From their manifesto....

What will happen in a second referendum?
A second referendum won’t be a re-run of 2016. This time the choice will be between leaving with a sensible deal or remaining in the European Union.
A Labour government will negotiate a sensible deal within three months of being elected. It will be based on the things we have long advocated and discussed with the EU; trade unions and businesses, including a new customs union, a close single market relationship and guarantees of rights and protections.
Within six months of being elected we will put that deal to a public vote, alongside remain. Two clear options, both agreed with the EU – no false promises or bluster. Labour will then carry out whatever the people decide.

It’s a very sensible proposal but as a remainer I would not bother.
Based on the amount of leave deals I have heard .. all have failed, to better our current position or have been completely imaginary.
So it feels like they will not get any thing out of Europe of note.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It's from their own official website and is the basis for their manifesto..

And, as I stated before. It's irrelevant what they would campaign for. They could campaign to replace the European Union with 3 dogs and an old man clutching a bottle of Buckie.. What they've promised is to hold a 2nd referendum. One that is legally binding and has only 2 options. The new deal or revoke Art50. Then they would act on it.. It is very very simple..

Nice to see you back mate.

 

[bluewolf]

Nice to see you back mate.

Cheers bud. Might only be a fleeting visit, but I do miss the place sometimes. The debate is usually stimulating and on the right side of the line. Usually 😂

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Cheers bud. Might only be a fleeting visit, but I do miss the place sometimes. The debate is usually stimulating and on the right side of the line. Usually 😂

99% of the Forum is all good, it’s only when me and the other 1% misbehave it’s frustrating.

 

[bluewolf]

99% of the Forum is all good, it’s only when me and the other 1% misbehave it’s frustrating.

I’ve been just as guilty as anyone mate. It’s easy to get dragged in to a stupid argument just because someone (mystifyingly) doesn’t share your well thought out opinions. 😉😉😉

 

[2blue]

99% of the Forum is all good, it’s only when me and the other 1% misbehave it’s frustrating.

I’ve been just as guilty as anyone mate. It’s easy to get dragged in to a stupid argument just because someone (mystifyingly) doesn’t share your well thought out opinions. 😉😉😉

So, so easy with so many Bumberling-Boris-Believers on this forum.... must be the air down sarth.🤣🤣🤪

 

[bobmac]

It's finally here, BREXIT DAY and we're now free of the EU shackles.
Happy days.








What?
What do you mean we haven't left yet?

 

[Hacker Khan]

It's finally here, BREXIT DAY and we're now free of the EU shackles.
Happy days.








What?
What do you mean we haven't left yet?

Dead in a ditch mate, dead in a ditch.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Dead in a ditch mate, dead in a ditch.

I wondered when. I refer you to post 15398.
You having a go at Boris for not keeping his promise is disingenuous to say the least.
You know very well why he could not do so. He was stitched up.

 

[bluewolf]

I wondered when. I refer you to post 15398.
You having a go at Boris for not keeping his promise is disingenuous to say the least.
You know very well why he could not do so. He was stitched up.

Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't..

He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't..

He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)

I’ve got a ticket for tonight mate, One million pounds coming your way when I win the jackpot.

 

[bluewolf]

I’ve got a ticket for tonight mate, One million pounds coming your way when I win the jackpot.

That's as good as a written contract mate..