Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

Trying to cover 2 points here, in one post.
First, the above, My issue, with any Party, how are these non-elected, not civil servants answerable to the Public, Cummings may or may not have an influence on the PM, but who decides and who has the final say on what he is privy to or can influence?

On the Judiciary (quite ignorant on it) if they don’t or shouldn’t get involved (which from what you’ve posted, makes sense) are we in danger of a PM or Party doing what they want, when they want, regardless of Party.

ie, if Boris had won what was to stop him proroguing Parliament again for some spurious reason to simply run the clock down, surely there has to be again some accountability for any Party or PM

On the issue of unelected Civil Sevants advising ministers, its gone on since long before you or I were a glint in someone's eye. If you think about it, a Civil Servant may have worked in, pick a dept, for donkey's years. Do you want a Cabinet Minister who's been in office for 5 mins making a decision or do you want him being advised by an expert? Ask Pieman for a better answer on that one.

On a party being able to make dodgy decisions, Grant85 asked the same question. He's right, as you are. I think its a loophole that needs closing. Johnson isn't the first to do it that I can remember. John Major prorogued to stop the cash for questions debate embarrassing his govt. It needs all parties to agree a formula on how long proroguing should last for. For example, using the current case, this is the longest session of parliament for many, many years. Creating a legislative programme after such a long session could take longer than if the session had only been 6 months(?).

Beyond that, when a govt is cavalier, maybe the parliamentary standards committee could/would get involved - I don't know, just guessing, but it does need some sort of catch all to it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

On the issue of unelected Civil Sevants advising ministers, its gone on since long before you or I were a glint in someone's eye. If you think about it, a Civil Servant may have worked in, pick a dept, for donkey's years. Do you want a Cabinet Minister who's been in office for 5 mins making a decision or do you want him being advised by an expert? Ask Pieman for a better answer on that one.

On a party being able to make dodgy decisions, Grant85 asked the same question. He's right, as you are. I think its a loophole that needs closing. Johnson isn't the first to do it that I can remember. John Major prorogued to stop the cash for questions debate embarrassing his govt. It needs all parties to agree a formula on how long proroguing should last for. For example, using the current case, this is the longest session of parliament for many, many years. Creating a legislative programme after such a long session could take longer than if the session had only been 6 months(?).

Beyond that, when a govt is cavalier, maybe the parliamentary standards committee could/would get involved - I don't know, just guessing, but it does need some sort of catch all to it.

Cheers Mate, although I’ve possibly confused you on the first point, I’m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isn’t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, he’s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. It’s these types that worry me!

 

[SocketRocket]

The independence of The Judiciary in UK is sacrocant!

Pity the Speaker isn't.

 

[SocketRocket]

Cheers Mate, although I’ve possibly confused you on the first point, I’m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isn’t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, he’s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. It’s these types that worry me!

But its not just Boris and Cummings, all political parties have them.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But its not just Boris and Cummings, all political parties have them.

Probably why I stated ALL PARTIES in my first post to HOBBIT.

Move along here, nothing to see.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Cheers Mate, although I’ve possibly confused you on the first point, I’m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isn’t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, he’s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. It’s these types that worry me!

Bernard Ingham was Maggie's press sec / advisor and was probably the first of this new breed. Ever since then all parties have had outside advisors / strategists. Getting elected is a professional game now and once in power the aim is then to stay there. The shame is these advisors tend to work and look only short term and that is not necessarily good for the country.

I would say you are right to be worried, I agree with you.

 

[woody69]

This is a fairly good summary of the week and our bumbling PM

https://twitter.com/x/status/1187751825858015232

 

[SocketRocket]

Probably why I stated ALL PARTIES in my first post to HOBBIT.

Move along here, nothing to see.

Was there any point in that reply. Did I insult you, I simply made a comment but you wanted to make it personal. I thought you had retired from this thread due to peoples attitude.

 

[woody69]

Firstly note that I voted Remain BECAUSE of many of the sort of things you state are advantages of May's deal. But, in reality, May's deal wasn't a Leave deal at all - it was a deal to Remain!

But, I've accepted the Referendum result.... The comparisons you are making indicate to me that you have not - as you still are still wanting benefits that only come with being an EU member!

BoJo's deal removes the potential (and too likely, imo) to be kept within the EU - by the EU - that May's deal had, so that's the important 'improvement'!

If UK is leaving the EU, that 'close relationship' etc. must be removed - otherwise UK hasn't left (control by) the EU!

Again, May's deal was a Bad Deal (that, to quote her, was worse than No Deal) in that regard - it wasn't leaving the EU at all! That's why it's important to get an FTA asap - rather poorer alternative to Customs Union imo, but controlled mutually - not purely by EU. Likewise, Single Market - huge benefit, imo, nut controlld by EU so has to be go - and replaced by a UK or mutually controlled mechanism. Same applies to/for Consumer Protection, Workplace Standards, Research co-operation, Cross Border Policing etc. that are currently under EU 'control' - UK has to find a way to achieve the current/desired levels of co-operation but under UK control!

In summary, you are simply (consciously or unconsciously) continuing the Leave v Rermain debate - so haven't accepted the Referendum result! And that also applies to many MPs as well. Until that (acceptance) happens, BoJo's deal will continue to be deemed to be 'poor'!

Why would I want to accept something I know is fundamentally bad for Britain with regards to our closest trading bloc?

I never said that May's deal was good, in fact compared to what we have now it was pretty poor, but the deal brought back by Boris is even worse for the reasons I outlined. We are also not going to arrange a FTA without significant sacrifices before Dec 2020, which means no deal. No safety net and an even bigger impact on the people of Britain.

We'll be given a "take it or leave it" on most deals from the likes of the EU, the US, China etc. There will be no "taking back control"

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Bernard Ingham was Maggie's press sec / advisor and was probably the first of this new breed. Ever since then all parties have had outside advisors / strategists. Getting elected is a professional game now and once in power the aim is then to stay there. The shame is these advisors tend to work and look only short term and that is not necessarily good for the country.

I would say you are right to be worried, I agree with you.

Ingham was also a former Civil Servant, so likely to had a lot of Government experience.
I agree with what Hobbit posted previously about surrounding yourself with experienced knowledgable personnel, but these days, these advisors appear to like the limelight rather than staying behind the scenes “advising”.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Was there any point in that reply. Did I insult you, I simply made a comment but you wanted to make it personal. I thought you had retired from this thread due to peoples attitude.

Read the thread then before you post! I asked Hobbit in a direct post, you chose to say something, nobody asked for your input.
I came back to the thread to ask a question to someone more knowledgable than me, not to point score or post for the sake of it

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You say its not a game but if you look at the way many MPs have worked against Brexit while using weasel words saying they respect the referendum outcome it has become a farce.
You have the audacity to point your finger at others making accusations that they dont understand the ramifications of their views, but you sir are one of the most blinkered self opinionated posters on this site, you have such vitriol and hatred in your anti conservative outlook you have blinded yourself to anything Boris or his cabinet may achieve. He may not be perfect but it would be interesting to see what kind of job an armchair socialist like you (who has probably never been hard up) do in his place. Your running scared and blinkered opinion really is rather pathetic.

Have you ever stop to think that there is the potential that people see you the same way with the way you talk down to people on here

It’s seems politics bring out the worst in some - I think some people need to see and understand that they see this whole process as damaging to the country - that’s just their opinion but it’s one that comes from a good place

 

[Hobbit]

Cheers Mate, although I’ve possibly confused you on the first point, I’m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isn’t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, he’s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. It’s these types that worry me!

I guess he answers to Johnson, and if he gets it wrong I'd expect someone as cuddly as Johnson would drop him in a heartbeat.

 

[robinthehood]

UK = civil servant
EU = unelected bureaucrat
😂🤣

 

[ColchesterFC]

We'll be given a "take it or leave it" on most deals from the likes of the EU, the US, China etc. There will be no "taking back control"

Why would the EU give us a take it or leave it deal? There has been pressure from German and Dutch manufacturers to agree a Brexit deal in the run up to the deadlines so far. Why would that change with regards to a trade deal after we have left?

For clarity - There might well have been pressure from other countries as well but I only have first hand knowledge of Germany and Netherlands due to working out there in that period.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Ingham was also a former Civil Servant, so likely to had a lot of Government experience.
I agree with what Hobbit posted previously about surrounding yourself with experienced knowledgable personnel, but these days, these advisors appear to like the limelight rather than staying behind the scenes “advising”.

He was but his days of neutrality were long gone.

My issue with the current crop is that they have minimal external experience, they are a bunch of graduate to lobby group to pr to advisor. Hardly any have been outside of the bubble and they rely too heavily on focus groups and polls. Maybe some have taken a different route but not many.

I think they are not afraid of the limelight now as they know they have a limited lifespan at the top and being known gets them a job as a lobbyist, corporate speaker, columnist, go to soundbite person for TV etc, no matter how rubbish and tarnished they were 😕

 

[Deleted member 16999]

He was but his days of neutrality were long gone.

My issue with the current crop is that they have minimal external experience, they are a bunch of graduate to lobby group to pr to advisor. Hardly any have been outside of the bubble and they rely too heavily on focus groups and polls. Maybe some have taken a different route but not many.

I think they are not afraid of the limelight now as they know they have a limited lifespan at the top and being known gets them a job as a lobbyist, corporate speaker, columnist, go to soundbite person for TV etc, no matter how rubbish and tarnished they were 😕

Agreed mate, sad thing is, many decent politicians may lose their seat at the next GE, but these clowns will continue to be employed by someone.
I’ve come across and worked with literally hundreds of Civil Servants in different Government Departments in my time and as much we (squaddies) always gave them stick (banter ) they are absolutely (99% of them) fully professional and very very good at their job.
Why anyone would listen to those advisors over a civil servant is beyond me!

 

[SocketRocket]

Have you ever stop to think that there is the potential that people see you the same way with the way you talk down to people on here

It’s seems politics bring out the worst in some - I think some people need to see and understand that they see this whole process as damaging to the country - that’s just their opinion but it’s one that comes from a good place

Maybe you could look to yourself before preaching to me.

 

[patricks148]

brexiters keep sprouting 17M voted to leave.... 45 mil reg voters in the UK ... not really the will of the people is it

 

[ColchesterFC]

Labour want a commitment from the government that no deal has been taken off the table before they will back a GE. But then Diane Abbott says that promises from the government aren't worth the paper they're written on. Considering that it's not possible for a current government to bind the hands of a future government it looks like they want something that the government can't give them.