Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Seems like the published Withdrawal Agreement Bill is going to take a bit of time to consider.
...
Also worth remembering that this Bill has been drafted in near enough it's current form for the best part of a year, yet the Government chose not to publish it until around 7pm last night - less than a day before it hopes to start voting for it. I'd suggest there is a reason for that and the more people read it, the more there will be to dislike for Tory Moderates and Tory Brexiteers alike.

This is potentially as daft / stupid / ignorant as all the MP's who voted to trigger A50 before they had any kind of plan, strategy or statement of intent about what they were going to negotiate with the EU. And then also voted to have an election a few weeks later.

Oh how often I asked at the time about the strategy and plan, to be told that in asking for such things I was being oh so naive about negotiations; that they government would of course have these but that we could not know of them. And then a little later I was told that the plan was given by May in her Lancaster House speech - and I pointed out that her Lancaster House speech stated a set of Objectives - and a set of Objectives makes neither a Strategy nor a Plan. And I was ridiculed yet again. And here we are.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The only reason that we've wasted three years is because Remainers won't/can't accept the result of the referendum.

It’s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ?

since when did “remainers” have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ?

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The only reason that we've wasted three years is because Remainers won't/can't accept the result of the referendum.

How about an alternative view that says we are where we are also because Leave had no idea what Leave means Leave actually meant. And that remains the case today without any interference whatsoever from 'Remainers'.

May had her idea of what Leave means (but she's a 'Remainer') - but her cabinet agreed with her; BoJo has his view (btw some Faragists are, as you might expect, now saying that BoJo has always been a 'Remainer' at heart and that explains why his deal is BRINO) - and his Cabinet agrees with him; and then there is Farage's view - and he tells his listeners, followers and acolytes, that leave is 'tearing' the UK away from the EU after 40 yrs of integration and that that will be 'clean' - when with even a little thought tells me that it is likely (I can't say definitely) to be extremely messy, ragged and painful.

 

[SocketRocket]

It’s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ?

since when did “remainers” have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ?

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.

Get real, youre not that precious. He is talking about politicians that are remainers, not you 🙄

 

[Deleted member 18121]

It’s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ?

since when did “remainers” have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ?

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.

I half see where you're coming from, but also you have to consider the amount of marches for peoples votes, 2nd refs, revoke A50, bin brexit etc etc that the noisy minority have staged, knowing full well that the main media outlets in the country would jump on them as they desperately want us to stay in the EU.

So yes, whilst it is lazy to dump "remainers" in the same pot, it is also lazy for people to label leavers with the kind of rubbish that has been spouted over the last 3 years. It seems this whole process has done little than drive a wedge between friends and families and lose so much respect for each other.......if the whole debacle had been dealt with swiftly we wouldn't be in this predicament and unfortunately its just getting worse.

 

[Slime]

I guess it's easier than reminding your self that the Tories threw their majority in a mistaken belief they'd sweep up the brexit vote and storm to a huge majority in an Ill thought out snap election.
Or that it was the Tory rebels who voted again thier own party to stop the first brexit vote .
But yeah it's all remain voters fault
😂😂😂

Read my reply the way it was intended, not just the way you want to hear it.

 

[Slime]

It’s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ?

since when did “remainers” have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ?

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.

You know exactly what I mean, stop trying to be argumentative, it doesn't suit you.

 

[SocketRocket]

How about an alternative view that says we are where we are also because Leave had no idea what Leave means Leave actually meant. And that remains the case today without any interference whatsoever from 'Remainers'.

May had her idea of what Leave means (but she's a 'Remainer') - but her cabinet agreed with her; BoJo has his view (btw some Faragists are, as you might expect, now saying that BoJo has always been a 'Remainer' at heart and that explains why his deal is BRINO) - and his Cabinet agrees with him; and then there is Farage's view - and he tells his listeners, followers and acolytes, that leave is 'tearing' the UK away from the EU after 40 yrs of integration and that that will be 'clean' - when with even a little thought tells me that it is likely (I can't say definitely) to be extremely messy, ragged and painful.

Do you have to relive your posts from two years ago, they were wrong then so what's the point of regurgitating them. Im a Leaver and knew exactly what I voted for, just like the vast majority of others, if I threw the same back that Remainers were too stupid to understand the details of remaining on the EU I guess you would object to that statement suggesting I was insulting your intelligence.

 

[SocketRocket]

You know exactly what I mean, stop trying to be argumentative, it doesn't suit you.

It does.

 

[Hobbit]

I agree. But it's a bit weird.

I heard the Housing Minister this morning arguing that whilst the UK would always aim to maintain rights in line with the EU, and indeed maintain the current UK levels which are in many aspects and respects better than the EU's requirements - the government wants to be able to have the freedom to be able to vary rights as a might be required when negotiating trade deals. And in the context of the Deal that can only mean having the flexibility to reduce them to less than EU minimum requirements - and in many areas that could be a significant reduction from today's levels.

I can therefore only conclude that if/when the Deal is agreed and worker/H&S etc rights remain outside of the legal aspect of the Deal, we are being signed up to accepting potentially significant loss of rights in the future.

It was also interesting hearing the minister trying to justify there being no economic analysis of the Deal done on the grounds that the Governor of the BoE is saying that it is a 'good' deal. Nick Robinson was quick to point out that what the Governor had said is that the Deal is 'good' relative to No Deal - and that he also said that NO deal would be better economically than the deal we currently have. I rather grimaced at a government minister quoting forecasts of the Gov of the BoE as a basis for it being a 'great' deal - given the rubbishing of him and all other economic forecasters that has gone on. But there we go (I couldn't laugh as it's not funny).

"and in many areas that could be a significant reduction from today's levels." Will it, or will they stay the same or will they even be improved. Affordable housing and tenant's rights is a significant issue in the UK. Do you honestly think the Tories will give away votes by making any detrimental changes? We don't know.

On the issue of worker's rights, and your conclusion, why do you see it as potentially seeing a significant loss in rights. Yes I get that there is that potential but you make no mention of the possibility of having better rights.

Admittedly, secondhand anecdotal evidence but if you think the EU workers rights are applied right across the EU you'd be mistaken. I see local FB posts every single week, and usually quite a few, from people whose rights have been totally ignored. And you can add in the weird application of Health and Safety over here. Pretty much everyone is wearing yellow Hi-vis vests/t-shirts but virtually no one in a hard hat. The actual practices are frighteningly hilarious, e.g. a council worker putting up fiesta/Christmas lights using a set of A-frame ladders on the back of a flatbed truck.

Equally, my experiences of working in Germany, and worker's rights sees the UK lagging behind.

Don't forget, any diminishing of right will see a change in where votes go. Try and temper the paranoia a little. Not saying you're wrong but I'm also not saying you're right.

 

[SocketRocket]

For those countries that have DONE deals with the EU (at least Japan and Canada from that list) bureaucratic speed is irrelevant! Aus and NZ are curently chugging through the process.
UK bureaucracy is hardly lightning btw!

Im not talking about the EU, I'm talking about trade deals in general.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You know exactly what I mean, stop trying to be argumentative, it doesn't suit you.

What exactly do you mean then because you clearly are blaming “remainers” for the position we are in right now - you are being generic and lumping everyone together

SILH does it towards “leavers” and gets rightly critisized for it

You are no better than the stuff he trots out - you are no doubt quite happy to pull him up on stuff when he is generic.

So maybe it’s best if you post exactly what you mean as opposed to lumping all remainers in together.

 

[Mudball]

I think this will go thru.. the last round difference of votes was less than 10. BoJo, DomCum dont care about the politics, impacts, workers, splitting the country etc... to use Raab's words 'they have the numbers' and thats what counts this month. The opposition will come from SNP, LibDem. The rest are all fence sitters, clueless or moneybags. So i expect the BoJo coterie to play them for what it is worth.


Leavers .. get your babyshams ready (only English Sparkling wine would do)

 

[Jimaroid]

Get real, youre not that precious. He is talking about politicians that are remainers, not you 🙄

Those MPs represent people like him.

And rightly so.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What exactly do you mean then because you clearly are blaming “remainers” for the position we are in right now - you are being generic and lumping everyone together

SILH does it towards “leavers” and gets rightly critisized for it

You are no better than the stuff he trots out - you are no doubt quite happy to pull him up on stuff when he is generic.

So maybe it’s best if you post exactly what you mean as opposed to lumping all remainers in together.

To avoid such accusations I try and make clear that I do not believe all Leave voters to be the same. Maybe I should re-iterate that - I do not believe all Leave voters believe the same things. I talked above about the Leave (campaign and lead proponents) not having a single definition of what Leaving meant. I did not say, and I do not say, that each Leave voter did not know what he or she was voting for. And just to be 100% clear - I did not say, and have never said, that Leave voters are racist and stupid - never said it - not once, and I would reject and rebuke any who say or suggest that they are. We are all simply as informed and knowledgeable as the information we hear, read and understand - from whatever the source of that information might be.

There are many things that I am well or reasonably informed about - there are many things that I know little or nothing about. What I know does not make make intelligent; what I do not know does not make me stupid. In that - if nothing else (other than a passion for golf) - we are all the same.

And yes - Remain supporting MPs and those who wish to minimise the impact of Leaving, have been obstructive to letting the governments of May and Johnson have it all their own way (parliamentary scrutiny) - and yes - that has contributed to where we are today. But it is also the fact that Leave supporting MPs and influencers cannot themselves agree what they mean by Leave - and that too has contributed to where we are today.

 

[SocketRocket]

Those MPs represent people like him.

And rightly so.

Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.

 

[Hobbit]

There are many things that I am well or reasonably informed about - there are many things that I know little or nothing about. What I know does not make make intelligent; what I do not know does not make me stupid. In that - if nothing else (other than a passion for golf) - we are all the same.

And yes - Remain supporting MPs and those who wish to minimise the impact of Leaving, have been obstructive to letting the governments of May and Johnson have it all their own way - and yes - that has contributed to where we are today. But it is also the fact that Leave supporting MPs and influencers cannot themselves agree what they mean by Leave - and that has contributed to where we are today.

Took the first paragraph for no other reason than some will argue differently, and I'd like to get past that.

On who has enough info and who doesn't; some people, both Leave and Remain were happy to cast their vote on zero info. I don't have a problem with that. Its up to people to make their own choices based on what they want or perceive. Both sides lied, and both sides embellished beyond belief and are a blight on UK politics. As for those who argue using those embellished facts or lies, knowing they haven't looked to qualify those points, its very disappointing.

As for the very base idea that has seen IQ and age brought in to determine who voted for what and used that info disparagingly, that's just plain arrogant and downright rude. People made their choices for their reasons, and in the main those reasons should be respected even if they are not agreed with - exclude the racists from that.

As for Remainer MP's blocking progress; I'm all for keeping the govt honest and subject to parliamentary scrutiny but I disagree with stopping Brexit. The biggest democratic exercise undertaken given to the electorate by Parliament should be respected, even if people don't agree with it. There's some MP's who've campaigned very openly and honestly for both sides of the argument, and I have my utmost respect for those MP's. Those that have lied, been circumspect with the truth and have been disingenuous in what they've done bring discredit to Westminster, and I hope come the next election are shown the door by the electorate.

 

[robinthehood]

Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.

Mine doesn't, but that's not just about brexit, more because of his inaction towards the gnr fiasco.

 

[Jimaroid]

Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.

Some do, some don't. That's the paradox we find ourselves in.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I half see where you're coming from, but also you have to consider the amount of marches for peoples votes, 2nd refs, revoke A50, bin brexit etc etc that the noisy minority have staged, knowing full well that the main media outlets in the country would jump on them as they desperately want us to stay in the EU.

No doubt people who want to stay in are arranging marches and petitions etc and it’s their right to do so within a free speech democracy etc but it doesn’t make much difference - the only ones that can carry out any actions are those within the HOC. It’s what they do that counts and imo we can’t trust any of them - some want to stay in for self preservation, some want to have the deal because it will suit them , some want to carry out their voters actions. I have my fingers crossed that it all works out for us - but I think we have some interesting and hard times ahead

So yes, whilst it is lazy to dump "remainers" in the same pot, it is also lazy for people to label leavers with the kind of rubbish that has been spouted over the last 3 years. It seems this whole process has done little than drive a wedge between friends and families and lose so much respect for each other.......if the whole debacle had been dealt with swiftly we wouldn't be in this predicament and unfortunately its just getting worse.

100% fully agree - you have it spot on

SILH has posted some rubbish on here and doesn’t realise at times when he is being insulting to others - some are happy to point that out to him but when you challenge those people - denial - for me they are hypocrites and Socketrocket is the Leave version of SILH - their single minded arrogance has caused most of the issues on this thread but coming from different sides of the fence. And the country has loads of them from both sides which as you say has driven a wedge

I think because we are that entwined within the EU it was never going to be a quick and uncomplicated process - it was a vote for the whole of the UK and the process of leaving must take into account the whole of the UK and not just the percentage who voted to leave - they need to realise any action is not just about them. I don’t see what a solution is going to be and it’s just going to get worse. I’m glad I have an Irish Passport at the moment.

This did make me giggle