Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[drdel]

^^^ and can we expect Bercow to find a reason he should stay on beyond 31st Oct to provide smooth continuity?

 

[Foxholer]

I think that its more about not allowing another debate on it which they did do on Saturday, sadly it stops the meaningful vote. These anti Brexit scum politicians need to learn what the constituents can do when the eagerly awaited election finally happens

He's simply applying a very long-standing procedure.

The Government can easily work around the ruling by introducing the (now amended) WA Bill for its 1st Reading - and I believe that's what will happen!

 

[SocketRocket]

He's simply applying a very long-standing procedure.

Course he is. The one that insists he does everything in his power to frustrate the Brexit process under the guise of being impartial.

 

[SocketRocket]

It is very plain to see that those not wanting a second vote are unhappy that the original decision may be overturned. I'd just like a bit of honesty: the simple underlying aim is to prevent a reverse of the result by hook or by crook.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I "continually ignore the truth that any new vote will be biased". You made that statement. Perhaps you can tell me, why a single transferable vote with the various options would be in any way biased

If you want a bit of honesty then turn your head in the direction of Letwin, Benn, Grieves, Corbyn, McDonnell and their shabby bunch of cronies and question their motives.

You are correct that many people don't want the previous vote overturned, why the hell should they, it hasn't been enacted yet. Your view reeks of 'entitlement' one that says 'I didnt get my way so I'll scream and scream untill im sick'

 

[Foxholer]

Course he is. The one that insists he does everything in his power to frustrate the Brexit process under the guise of being impartial.

As per the 2nd part of my post....

The government can easily work around that by introducing the amended Bill! And Speaker even told them so!

 

[Blue in Munich]

Are you capable of having a discussion without ad hominem attacks?

If nobody has changed their minds, nothing has changed then what is the harm in asking the question?

So if we have a second one and Remain win, they will of course request another Referendum on a best of 3 basis to ensure fair play, won’t they...

Yeah, right. 🙄

 

[Mudball]

Nothing to do with Brexit.. but interesting situation with the abortion laws.
NI govt (the same which in the future will decide on customs/tax and other admin malarkey AND has never met since 2017) could not pull together and pass NI’s abortion bill. So rUK’s laws will now apply. How will that go down with NI government? Will the DUP say sod it to the support or will ask BoJo to decide it for them thru HoC?
It looks like parts of the withdrawal agreement is proped up by another set of waring kids on the other side of the Irish Sea..

 

[Hobbit]

If you want a bit of honesty then turn your head in the direction of Letwin, Benn, Grieves, Corbyn, McDonnell and their shabby bunch of cronies and question their motives.

You are correct that many people don't want the previous vote overturned, why the hell should they, it hasn't been enacted yet. Your view reeks of 'entitlement' one that says 'I didnt get my way so I'll scream and scream untill im sick'

I'll agree with you on Corbyn and McDonnell. For me, the jury is out for Letwin. Benn has been nothing other honest with what he wants all the way through.

 

[SocketRocket]

As per the 2nd part of my post....

The government can easily work around that by introducing the amended Bill! And Speaker even told them so!

That wasn't relative to my point. My point is that Bercow is biased and its plainly obvious that he is.

 

[Hobbit]

Nothing to do with Brexit.. but interesting situation with the abortion laws.
NI govt (the same which in the future will decide on customs/tax and other admin malarkey AND has never met since 2017) could not pull together and pass NI’s abortion bill. So rUK’s laws will now apply. How will that go down with NI government? Will the DUP say sod it to the support or will ask BoJo to decide it for them thru HoC?
It looks like parts of the withdrawal agreement is proped up by another set of waring kids on the other side of the Irish Sea..

There isn't a NI govt. They've refused to attend the NI Parliament, Storment for x years now.

 

[Mudball]

Dumbfounded
Almost speechless
Just can't believe you are still arguing about that dam bus 3 years later.

Same reason as we are still debating if we are in or out after 3 years..

 

[SocketRocket]

I'll agree with you on Corbyn and McDonnell. For me, the jury is out for Letwin. Benn has been nothing other honest with what he wants all the way through.

They only admit to wanting to stop a no deal which is untrue.

 

[Dando]

Sorry - but 'Let's fund the NHS instead' is pretty clearly an indication by the Leave campaign of what £350m/week could be used for. The £350m/week was never there to be used in any way - the figure was a lie. And so saying £350/week could be used to fund the NHS instead was also a lie. The official Leave campaign refused to disown it (Farage distanced himself for his own reasons) - it stayed on the bus and elsewhere - and as DomCumm subsequently boasted it was a critical message in persuading voters to vote Leave. But water under the bridge.

You should do stand up 😂😂😂

 

[Mudball]

There isn't a NI govt. They've refused to attend the NI Parliament, Storment for x years now.

I know... but they play a crucial role in BoJos deal as they will have to review border control arrangements every 4 years

 

[Hobbit]

They only admit to wanting to stop a no deal which is untrue.

You know that as a fact? Benn admitted long ago that he absolutely doesn't want Brexit. Letwin has flip flopped - is he for/against or an inbetweeny at present? The other 2 I wouldn't trust with a school crossing.

 

[Hobbit]

I know... but they play a crucial role in BoJos deal as they will have to review border control arrangements every 4 years

They can only review the border arrangements if they reconvene Stormont - here's hoping they start to do the job they were elected for, i.e. govern NI on a day to day basis.

 

[robinthehood]

So if we have a second one and Remain win, they will of course request another Referendum on a best of 3 basis to ensure fair play, won’t they...

Yeah, right. 🙄

Nope, they'd move on and put this sorry mess in the past and get on with the important things in life.

 

[Foxholer]

That wasn't relative to my point. My point is that Bercow is biased and its plainly obvious that he is.

There was plenty of discussion about that during the session! He countered every accusation rather well.
I trust you mean 'relevant'.
The procedure, preventing repeat discussion of a Bill, has been in use since 1601. The 'workaround' is trivial, but forces the Government to get off their backsides and introduce and push the legislation through - as opposed to a 'simple' vote of acceptance of the WA!

 

[woody69]

It sounds like you don’t understand the meaning of winning and losing.
We were told by the PM it would be implemented.
So Remain is out of the equation.
Whatever deal they mash up is fine but we must leave.
If not democracy is dead ,just get on with it.

It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK can cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.

 

[chrisd]

Nope, they'd move on and put this sorry mess in the past and get on with the important things in life.

Are you thinking of teaming up with Silh and become the new Morecombe and Wise?