Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hacker Khan]

I'm more and more confused by Varadkar's stance.

Last week he called for 'manufactured' goods to be included in the UK's proposition, now he says the whole 'deal' is a non-starter. Apart from the obvious economic impact I'd have thought Ireland's reliance on the UK's RAF (Ireland has 2 aircraft and about 7,000 personnel) would have been more likely to have pushed for sensible timescales and plans. Perhaps the new EU military will set up a base or two and patrol the area !

Its obviously in the UK's/NATO interests to maintain patrols but there seems to little mention of defence.

Much like the German car manufacturers? Or the French Wine and cheese producers? I am sure these were all important voices of some kind, but on their own I may suggest that certain areas of the press may have over exaggerated their importance when compared to the overall principles that the EU laid out pretty clearly for all to know a long time ago.

 

[drdel]

Much like the German car manufacturers? Or the French Wine and cheese producers? I am sure these were all important voices of some kind, but on their own I may suggest that certain areas of the press may have over exaggerated their importance when compared to the overall principles that the EU laid out pretty clearly for all to know a long time ago.

So why have they wasted 3 years asking for the UK to provide a solution which was never going to fly?

 

[Taz]

So why have they wasted 3 years asking for the UK to provide a solution which was never going to fly?

3 years = more ££££££

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What a load of bollocks being spoken here. The simple solution to all this current crap would have been the EU to have been prepared to negotiate a free trade deal as part of the withdraw agreement, this would have negated all this current prevarication over the Irish border
The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave.

So which word of that did we not know when we voted to leave.

Which word of that did we not know when being told by lead leavers that leaving would be so easy; it would be the easiest deal in human history (Liam Fox); that we'd have the deal of our choice (Farage I believe); that the German car industry (Digby Jones), the French cheese and wine and the Italian prosecco producers would demand that the EU strikes a good deal with us. What bit of that did we not know...? We knew it all.

But when it was pointed out that the EU would stick to their guns over the CU especially - that they had to stick to their guns; that they would uphold the underpinnings of GFA - that was all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear and to be ignored. What bit of that did we not know.

But no pointing at Project Fear for the evidence that leavers knew that a No Deal exit was likely if we did not understand the EUs red lines and set out our negotiating stall in the context of them - accepting them as very severe constraints on any deal that might be struck. Because Leave voters were told to ignore anything to do with Project Fear - to dismiss it as unrealistic scaremongering.

Which bit of all of this did we not know.

But - as said - today I feel thoroughly depressed and full of despair for our country - riven by Brexit - and daily the wedge is hammered in by such as the abhorrent Leave.EU twitter post. Well at least it makes clear the stinking thinking of those who thought it a good idea. But it's out there - no point in apologising. Their apologies are empty. It was deliberate - it stokes the fury further. Desperate.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

So which word of that did we not know when we voted to leave.

Which word of that did we not know when being told by lead leavers that leaving would be so easy; it would be the easiest deal in human history (Liam Fox); that we'd have the deal of our choice; that the German car industry (Digby Jones), the French cheese and wine and the Italian prosecco producers would demand that the EU strikes a good deal with us. What bit of that did we not know...? We knew it all.

But when it was pointed out that the EU would stick to their guns over the CU especially - that they had to stick to their guns; that they would uphold the underpinnings of GFA - that was all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear and to be ignored. What bit of that did we not know.

But no pointing at Project Fear for the evidence that leavers knew that a No Deal exit was likely if we did not understand the EUs red lines and set out our negotiating stall in the context of them - accepting them as very severe constraints on any deal that might be struck. Because Leave voters were told to ignore anything to do with Project Fear - to dismiss it as unrealistic scaremongering.

Which bit of all of this did we not know.

We just didn't realise JUST HOW MUCH THE EU NEEDED US!!!! They are trying to make it as difficult as possible. Boris, however, is doing the same and we will be out on the 31st with NO DEAL (I hope). My God what a brilliant Halloween night I'm gonna have that night if it happens. I'm being made redundant (maybe) that day. Nice pay out and a BIG PARTY ! (hopefully)

 

[Hacker Khan]

So why have they wasted 3 years asking for the UK to provide a solution which was never going to fly?

As I've said in a previous post, perhaps they were expecting the UK to spend that time negotiating with the EU instead of spending that time negotiating with itself.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We just didn't realise JUST HOW MUCH THE EU NEEDED US!!!! They are trying to make it as difficult as possible. Boris, however, is doing the same and we will be out on the 31st with NO DEAL (I hope). My God what a brilliant Halloween night I'm gonna have that night if it happens. I'm being made redundant (maybe) that day. Nice pay out and a BIG PARTY ! (hopefully)

Good luck in your redundancy. You'll not have to worry about losing your job then.

BTW - I assume that you will be toasting the EU as you are getting what you want...though you must excuse me for not believing that you voted to leave specifically wanting no deal to be agreed. You might have. But I suspect that most leave voters did not - as No Deal was not what they were sold.

 

[Hacker Khan]

We just didn't realise JUST HOW MUCH THE EU NEEDED US!!!! They are trying to make it as difficult as possible. Boris, however, is doing the same and we will be out on the 31st with NO DEAL (I hope). My God what a brilliant Halloween night I'm gonna have that night if it happens. I'm being made redundant (maybe) that day. Nice pay out and a BIG PARTY ! (hopefully)

Genuinely don't know if you are being ironic or serious. Being really happy that you are being made redundant and we will be out with no deal on the same day makes me feel you are being ironic, but I just don't know nowadays.

 

[Tashyboy]

Do you need to be skilled to pick cabbages? Equally, if the UK has a surplus of IT technicians does it really need more?

Skill has little to do with it, but need does. As you say, a hairdresser is needed Oz but some other trades aren't. The same would apply in the UK, or should.

That's exactly my point H and that's why skills vary from state to state. 👍

 

[Tashyboy]

Between legal and illegal ...?
Oof.

So let's get this right, those coming across europe, across the channel from Iran and Iraq having paid people smugglers are legal or illegal and benefitting our society. Hmmm.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

Genuinely don't know if you are being ironic or serious. Being really happy that you are being made redundant and we will be out with no deal on the same day makes me feel you are being ironic, but I just don't know nowadays.

Not after sympathy, genuine. Although it's gonna be hell finding a similar "job". Doing so little and getting paid to do it. Luckilliy don't need full time.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Bearing in mind that it is in the guardian which brings its own preconceptions from both sides, but I thought this was a thoughtful piece that only occasionally veered into hyperbole, but made some good points nonetheless. IMHO of course, it isn't fact, it's an opinion. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-crisis-global-capitalism-britain-place-world

 

[robinthehood]

So let's get this right, those coming across europe, across the channel from Iran and Iraq having paid people smugglers are legal or illegal and benefitting our society. Hmmm.

What do immigrants from Iran, Iraq etc ,legal or otherwise, have to do with brexit?

Last week it was rambling on about the Lisbon treaty, what can we expect next week ? Retweets of leave.eus feed ?
Total rammell

 

[drdel]

Irish finance minister confused by BBC's Robinson question on the paradox that Ireland won't accept the deal that progressively implements 'light touch' customs check but will push for a No Deal that requires immediate customs/border checks !!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Irish finance minister confused by BBC's Robinson question on the paradox that Ireland won't accept the deal that progressively implements 'light touch' customs check but will push for a No Deal that requires immediate customs/border checks !!

It is a contradiction isn't it? Both sides are wanting the other to blink over this issue but Boris and team need to be asking that question over and over again. Really ram it home, the no deal being far worse for this issue than the compromise deal.

 

[drdel]

It is a contradiction isn't it? Both sides are wanting the other to blink over this issue but Boris and team need to be asking that question over and over again. Really ram it home, the no deal being far worse for this issue than the compromise deal.

Yup. Fundamentally I don't think Macron, Merkel and Brussels really give a toss about Ireland and they will gradually marginalise it as too much hassle, over time; once they've thrown money at it to seem to be the good guys.

 

[GB72]

Yup. Fundamentally I don't think Macron, Merkel and Brussels really give a toss about Ireland and they will gradually marginalise it as too much hassle, over time; once they've thrown money at it to seem to be the good guys.

Yep, if I were Ireland I would be getting my demands in now for EU cash and incentives. They are the trump card at the moment, they agree to any proposals for a deal and the EU position folds. At the moment the EU can play the Ireland card and not have to even worry about other points

 

[Tashyboy]

What do immigrants from Iran, Iraq etc ,legal or otherwise, have to do with brexit?

Last week it was rambling on about the Lisbon treaty, what can we expect next week ? Retweets of leave.eus feed ?
Total rammell

I was being an arse, I knew that before I asked the question. You didnt realise when you asked the difference between flooding the UK with eastern European non skilled car washers and contributing sod all to the UK, and free movement between skilled workers between the UK and Oz. If you cannot recognise that unpoliced migration of non skilled people coming to the UK was a source of concern to people in the UK. Then you are wasting your time posting on here. A bit more rammel for you there 👍

 

[robinthehood]

I was being an arse, I knew that before I asked the question. You didnt realise when you asked the difference between flooding the UK with eastern European non skilled car washers and contributing sod all to the UK, and free movement between skilled workers between the UK and Oz. If you cannot recognise that unpoliced migration of non skilled people coming to the UK was a source of concern to people in the UK. Then you are wasting your time posting on here. A bit more rammel for you there 👍

Deary me .
I really don't know where to start.
So I won't bother
😂😂

 

[woody69]

What a load of bollocks being spoken here. The simple solution to all this current crap would have been the EU to have been prepared to negotiate a free trade deal as part of the withdraw agreement, this would have negated all this current prevarication over the Irish border
The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave.

I think you find the ONLY reason a Withdrawal Agreement was presented rather than an FTA was because Article 50, which was drafted by the Scottish cross-bench peer and former diplomat Lord Kerr clearly states:

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament

So yeah, you know, the law and all that nonsense.