Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Foxholer]

He has a completely blinkered biased view of anything Tory or Brexit that lacks the slightest modicum of balance...

Given my 'adjustment' for your own (also completely acceptable) bias, that's a view he's perfectly entitled to have! 'Balance' is not a pre-requisite of any post, for the reasons I mentioned!

...I have a Brexit biased view but I dont post diatribes that support my viewpoint...

H'mm! I seem to remember using the term 'twaddle' several times where you have!

...I have a Brexit biased view...no doubt you would be the first on here to point out my imbalanced thinking as obsesive...

Certainly not! You are entitled to your view, just as anyone else to theirs!

...Responding to SLH in the sarcastic MO he uses himself is not bullying, its retalitory,...

There have certainly been times when it seems that way though, especially when, it seems, a 'team approach' is used to attack a quite reasonable, if 'biased', pov!

...bullying...if it was then I could often throw the challenge in your direction.

Feel free to (appropriately) challenge (whatever you actually mean by that) me whenever you deem appropriate!

 

[Foxholer]

...
I thought you'd be busy telling me how not all EU countries are in the schengen zone and how not all schengen zone countries are in the EU.
...

Now that WAS a truly irrelevant post!

 

[Foxholer]

If circumstances, facts or my understanding changes - then I have a democratic right to change my mind

I can't remember Kipling writing that!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Since when has 'balance' been a pre-requisite for posting on this - or any - forum. Especially one with Brexit as a topic!

There's certainly no evidence of 'balance' in your own, nor several/many other posters posts! But that's fine by me, up to the point where they seem (to me) more like bullying, which seems (to me) to happen far too often!

Thankyou.

However I remain open to being informed of all or any outcomes that will - in the year after we leave with no deal - definitely and noticeably benefit my family - benefits that will counter-balance what I factually know that I will lose - such as freedom of movement to holiday and work; freedom to drive without additional insurance; freedom to not have to worry about health insurance. Just have to look at the government adverts on TV telling me what I have to be doing different for the evidence of what I will lose.

And I have said before that if a deal was agreed by Johnson that had wide support amongst the Leave community then I might well be inclined to support it - or vote for it if it came to a referendum (is that balanced?). Because I absolutely see the need for something to happen and compromise for a coming together to heal the horrible wounds Brexit has caused in society. But I fear (and I have also said this before) that no matter the deal agreed - Farage and the ERG will call it a sell-out - a Surrender Deal - and that will result in many in the Leave camp rejecting such a deal and supporting Farage and the BT in the next GE.

What am I supposed to do then? Support or vote for a deal on something I strongly disagree with, when those who should support it reject it. And I find that with my vote or support in seeking a compromise to heal, we end up with something I never wanted - with Farage and his crew having significant representation in Westminster - a dreadful prospect that will only divide our divided country even more.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I can't remember Kipling writing that!

Neither can I - but it's true...

 

[Hobbit]

Name calling? I'll call Cummings whatever I want if that's what you mean - as he is to my mind simply a 'wormtongue' twisting the thoughts and actionsd of our PM. And don't you think that that rather adds balance to the absurd 'Spartans' the ERG style themselves as these days - or to the 'Surrender' Act as Johnson refers to the Benn Act.

Hugh, there's been the odd occasion when you've admitted you haven't qualified the piece you've posted up. Calling someone Wormtongue does seem a little rich when you yourself have admitted you post stuff up without finding out if its true.

It goes against credibility. Post up a falsehood, I won't say you're lying because feel you accept it at face value as it suits 'your eye,' and being found out just blows your credibility to bits. Which is a shame as you do post up some good stuff, e.g. your piece on Johnson getting tied in knots over Gatt24 para10.

 

[clubchamp98]

If circumstances, facts or my understanding changes - then I have a democratic right to change my mind

Not if the Benn act gets there first as it cuts down your choices halfway through the argument.

 

[Foxholer]

...Calling someone Wormtongue does seem a little rich...

I'm prepared to allow anyone call folk in that (spin doctor etc) position (left or right; Leave or Remain) just about anything they like! Wormtoungue seems eminently appropriate!
If anyone considers that hypocrisy, I'll happily plead guilty!

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm prepared to allow anyone call folk in that (spin doctor etc) position (left or right; Leave or Remain) just about anything they like! Wormtoungue seems eminently appropriate!
If anyone considers that hypocrisy, I'll happily plead guilty!

Thats just fine your codpiecefaceness 🙃

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The utter shambles that is the Scottish Branch of the Tory party.
Left hand, let me introduce you to right hand.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ad/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_iosshare_AtLY4C8ylKvd

 

[Fade and Die]

Interesting what you can find on the internet!

Also more hypocrisy from Swinson...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...-video-Liberal-Democrat-conference-referendum

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Ah but that advert was when the Lib-Dems where pretendy Tories.
That fiasco proved so popular that it nearly ended their party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40599992
Brexit supporting aristocrat jailed for 12 weeks for death threats to Gina Miller
That seemed to slip quietly under eyes of the the press

 

[Fade and Die]

Ah but that advert was when the Lib-Dems where pretendy Tories.
That fiasco proved so popular that it nearly ended their party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40599992
Brexit supporting aristocrat jailed for 12 weeks for death threats to Gina Miller
That seemed to slip quietly under eyes of the the press

Dictionary definitions…

Liberal (adjective): willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own; open to new ideas.

Democratic (adjective): relating to or supporting democracy or its principles.

By these defintions, neither Swinson nor her party are ‘liberal’ not ‘democratic.’ Be a bit weird to go into an election calling your group ‘The Party’ though. Swinson and her mob, more than a third of whom were elected as members of other parties but refuse to stand in by-elections, are about as democratic as the old East Germany (German Democratic Republic) or North Korea (Democratic People’s Republic of Korea).

 

[IanM]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40599992
That seemed to slip quietly under eyes of the the press

Under the eyes? And you post a link to the biggest news organisation in World? Ok

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm prepared to allow anyone call folk in that (spin doctor etc) position (left or right; Leave or Remain) just about anything they like! Wormtoungue seems eminently appropriate!
If anyone considers that hypocrisy, I'll happily plead guilty!

Thankyou - From what I hear and read of Cummings' influence over the PM's thinking, words and actions - Wormtongue is no more an inappropriate description of Cummings that our PM calling the Benn Act the Surrender Act - because he thinks it appropriate.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Dictionary definitions…

Liberal (adjective): willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own; open to new ideas.

Democratic (adjective): relating to or supporting democracy or its principles.

By these defintions, neither Swinson nor her party are ‘liberal’ not ‘democratic.’ Be a bit weird to go into an election calling your group ‘The Party’ though. Swinson and her mob, more than a third of whom were elected as members of other parties but refuse to stand in by-elections, are about as democratic as the old East Germany (German Democratic Republic) or North Korea (Democratic People’s Republic of Korea).

Except, as you know, if Swinson were ever to be in a position to enact the policy (very unlikely), the LibDems would have been voted into government by The People following a General Election. And so revoking Article 50 would be The Will of The People.

 

[Hobbit]

Thankyou - From what I hear and read of Cummings' influence over the PM's thinking, words and actions - Wormtongue is no more an inappropriate description of Cummings that our PM calling the Benn Act the Surrender Act - because he thinks it appropriate.

You seem to have missed my point. I compared you to Wormtongue because of your own admission of occasionally posting stuff up without qualifying it in the slightest. If you think that gives you some higher moral ground, I feel sorry for you.

That doesn't mean I don't think most politicians wouldn't know the truth if it was engraved on a plank and then they were hit repeatedly with it.

 

[Foxholer]

Thats just fine your codpiecefaceness 🙃

I hadn't realised we'd met!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

He has a completely blinkered view of anything Tory or Brexit that lacks the slightest modicum of balance. I have a Brexit biased view but I dont post diatribes that support my viewpoint, if I did no doubt you would be the first on here to point out my imbalanced thinking as obsesive. Responding to SLH in the sarcastic MO he uses himself is not bullying, its retalitory, if it was then I could often throw the challenge in your direction.

Not true. I have posted very clearly that I could support a Deal if I felt that it would receive very significant support from those who voted to Leave.

I would struggle if it did not, and as a result Farage and his crew gained significant numbers of MPs in a subsequent General Election - an outcome that I consider one that would simply create greater division in the country - greater even than that we have now.

I admit that I struggle with the idea of supporting anything that Johnson and such as Raab, Cleverly, Gove, Patel and Javid come up with as I consider their words to be exacerbating the anger and division in the country at the moment. But I could probably get over that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You seem to have missed my point. I compared you to Wormtongue because of your own admission of occasionally posting stuff up without qualifying it in the slightest. If you think that gives you some higher moral ground, I feel sorry for you.

That doesn't mean I don't think most politicians wouldn't know the truth if it was engraved on a plank and then they were hit repeatedly with it.

I am assuming that you know the character Grima Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings - and the negative and poisonous influence he had over Theoden - the King of the Rohans.

Johnson describing the Benn Act as the Surrender Act simply feeds the anger and division. He has said now many times that he will continue to call it that because he feels that that is what it does. Likewise, given everything we know about Cummings - and indeed from his own mouth on Brexit and the Leave Campaign - I do not see it as inappropriate to describe Cummings as Wormtongue - as to me that is precisely the character he is.