Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

At which point did I say tax avoidance isn’t legal?


I didn’t say anywhere that tax avoidance was a crime, try to play the ball not the man once in while.

It looks like you are not fussed about it, fair enough I wouldn’t expect anything different to be honest.

I'm in the "where's the crime group." I agree its immoral but until its a law I'm genuinely not interested. The reason is pretty solid I'm my mind. If you drive, for example, Starbucks to relocate elsewhere you're going to lose even more by forcing them out of the country. I'd rather have 5% of something than 20% of nothing.

I posted that link a while ago , it was ignored then and it will likely be ignored now.

I read the link but felt that when it started being vague about who did what, using language that exaggerated the wrongs of a particular group, it lost its impact. If it was accurate, rather than inflammatory I'd give it greater credence. However, the article did make me go and look at tax avoidance in the UK, and the rest of Europe/world. HMRC's own numbers for the amount of avoidance is quite staggering but the cost of chasing something already protected actually makes it hardly worthwhile - and if a government did what the Irish Government did in terms of tax breaks, you might as well totally forget it.

 

[Foxholer]

...
But not holding my breath.

That would be very unwise!

 

[Mudball]

How will a referendum solve the fact that the Gov or the opposition has no majority in Parliament and would not be able to get any legislation through parliament.

another good point.... so what is the alternative..

Should we have Ref & GE on the same ballot?

Then the folks could campaign... 'I am Joe/Jane Bloggs and I campaing to Remain/Leave'

 

[Old Skier]

It’s NOT Labour stopping a GE, they don’t have enough MP’s to do that.

It’s absolutely every other Party plus a few tories minus the DUP stopping a GE.

ie. The opposition.

My maths may be as poor as my spelling but I would have thought with Labour & Tories (less rebels) there would be the necessary numbers.

 

[Old Skier]

another good point.... so what is the alternative..

Should we have Ref & GE on the same ballot?

Then the folks could campaign... 'I am Joe/Jane Bloggs and I campaing to Remain/Leave'

I presume stating the obvious "We have already had a referendum " is lost on some.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

My maths may be as poor as my spelling but I would have thought with Labour & Tories (less rebels) there would be the necessary numbers.

Nobody else but the tories want a GE, he’s playing games, he can have one today with 100% support if he takes No Deal off the table.

 

[clubchamp98]

It’s NOT Labour stopping a GE, they don’t have enough MP’s to do that.

It’s absolutely every other Party plus a few tories minus the DUP stopping a GE.

ie. The opposition.

Just heard on radio that Labour still have a petition for a GE on their website.
Corbyn has asked in Parliament 35 times for a GE.

the government is as good as its opposition ,has never been truer.

 

[Foxholer]

...
I didn’t say anywhere that tax avoidance was a crime, try to play the ball not the man once in while.
...

There didn't seem, to me, to be any 'playing of the man' involved!

...
It looks like you are not fussed about it, fair enough I wouldn’t expect anything different to be honest.

From memory, Socket has been the CEO of a company - involving more than a few employees. So 'not fussed about it' would be an inappropriate description imo. A CEO has certain responsibilities, some enshrined in law, that (s)he 'has to be fussed about'!

 

[Hitdaball]

So around £3.5 billion in tax evasion which is the bit that the government could claw back to spend elsewhere. Unless or until they change the rules on those areas of avoidance that are currently perfectly legal.

According to Full Fact the UK contribution to the EU in 2018 was £17.4 billion. We then get the rebate of £4.2 billion leaving £13.2 billion that is our actual contribution. The EU spent £4.3 billion on "public sector" in the UK which leaves £8.9 billion as our net contribution.

Which means that your original statement "not too much short of the UKs net contribution to the EU in 2018" was disingenuous at best or deliberately misleading or a lie at worst. The £3.5 billion is in fact just under 40% of our net EU membership costs or £5.4 billion short rather than "not too much short of".

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

True to a point but only if you don’t include tax avoidance. I would.

No one earning income on PAYE is able to benefit from avoidance schemes- why is it seen as ok? I find it incredulous.

So neither disingenuous misleading or a lie. Just an opinion 😉

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Just heard on radio that Labour still have a petition for a GE on their website.
Corbyn has asked in Parliament 35 times for a GE.

the government is as good as its opposition ,has never been truer.

And yet this morning I was accused of being pedantic.

EVERYBODY wants a GE on their terms, Boris stated he wouldn’t be holding a GE when he became PM, he’s trying to manipulate everyone.

Why can’t he agree he’ll take No Deal off the table if he’s that desperate for it.

Didn’t see, read or hear one tory supporter asking for a GE prior to last week.

 

[drdel]

Nobody else but the tories want a GE, he’s playing games, he can have one today with 100% support if he takes No Deal off the table.

But in the real world one side can never actually take walking away from a negotiation 'off the table'. Such a one-sided arrangement fails the EU's Art50 declaration of mutually agreed agreement. It could lead to a never ending set of meetings for decades which ties everyone together because no one side could unilaterally declare an ending. OK for the EU who will happily waste member's money (they have just appointed two commissioners at a cost of 1m euros each to do nothing until Nov when the new lot starts). Its just a couple of silly words leading to no mutually agreed logical conclusion of negotiations.

 

[Foxholer]

But in the real world one side can never actually take walking away from a negotiation 'off the table'. Such a one-sided arrangement fails the EU's Art50 declaration of mutually agreed agreement. It could lead to a never ending set of meetings for decades which ties everyone together because no one side could unilaterally declare an ending. OK for the EU who will happily waste member's money (they have just appointed two commissioners at a cost of 1m euros each to do nothing until Nov when the new lot starts). Its just a couple of silly words leading to no mutually agreed logical conclusion of negotiations.

Presumably, 2 have also gone - or will go. Correct?

 

[ColchesterFC]

True to a point but only if you don’t include tax avoidance. I would.

No one earning income on PAYE is able to benefit from avoidance schemes- why is it seen as ok? I find it incredulous.

So neither disingenuous misleading or a lie. Just an opinion 😉

Why would you include avoidance? Have you got an ISA? This is one example of perfectly legal tax avoidance. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and within the law.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As a politician he will use whatever trick in the book in a similar way that Labour are now in stopping a GE. Both sides playing games and there are still some not accepting it.

The Labour party is not stopping a GE - Parliament is delaying a GE until the 31/10 picture is clear.

Johnson should be delighted - after all he doesn't want one. What's a few weeks delay in holding of a GE between friends.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But in the real world one side can never actually take walking away from a negotiation 'off the table'. Such a one-sided arrangement fails the EU's Art50 declaration of mutually agreed agreement. It could lead to a never ending set of meetings for decades which ties everyone together because no one side could unilaterally declare an ending. OK for the EU who will happily waste member's money (they have just appointed two commissioners at a cost of 1m euros each to do nothing until Nov when the new lot starts). Its just a couple of silly words leading to no mutually agreed logical conclusion of negotiations.

Unfortunately the issue is the man himself, all the soundbites and statements he’s made during the summer prior to Parliament coming back, led to him not being trusted, including by members of his own Party.

For example; If he’d of cancelled the conferences, put out statements of doing everything in his power to get a deal etc he may not as been so successful in uniting the rest of Parliament against him.

Did he really have to publicly state time and time again the No Deal option or could of he tried to negotiate and kept that private, he has intentionally or not made the No Deal option look like his priority.

 

[Old Skier]

The Labour party is not stopping a GE - Parliament is delaying a GE until the 31/10 picture is clear.

Johnson should be delighted - after all he doesn't want one. What's a few weeks delay in holding of a GE between friends.

So no significant change here then, lucky as I haven't seen your link where this has recently been stated for granting an extension.

 

[ColchesterFC]

For example; If he’d of cancelled the conferences, put out statements of doing everything in his power to get a deal etc he may not as been so successful in uniting the rest of Parliament against him.

Can a Conservative PM cancel the Labour and Lib Dem conferences?

 

[Foxholer]

..
No one earning income on PAYE is able to benefit from avoidance schemes- why is it seen as ok? I find it incredulous.
...

Twaddle!

Btw. I believe 'incredible' would have been more appropriate!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The Labour party is not stopping a GE - Parliament is delaying a GE until the 31/10 picture is clear.

Johnson should be delighted - after all he doesn't want one. What's a few weeks delay in holding of a GE between friends.

Your missing the trick, tory MP’s + Labour MP’s is enough to get a GE and as he’s not getting one (simple maths) it’s Labours fault, but when you use simple maths to show TM’s deal would of got through had she had tory support on it’s own, you get the bad deal and Labours fault again excuse.

So it’s never the tories fault.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Can a Conservative PM cancel the Labour and Lib Dem conferences?

I believe the Government could of kept Parliament open for the next 5 weeks to discuss Brexit and cancelled their own conference, other leaders would of followed, I’ve definitely seen anger from both Lab/Lib MP’s complaining it will be closed.