Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Foxholer]

Boris needed a majority of the total house not just a majority of the votes cast

Wasn't it actually 2/3rds (of 'total house')?

 

[Colonel Bogey]

Bj the Bear's language was a tad ripe at Q-Time. Inflammatory ?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

So in summary today Boris has been beaten twice ?

The bill to stop a No Deal Brexit was approved ? Is that right?

And MPs didn’t back his call for a General Election

So do we have two scenarios left - leave with the deal TM got or revoke Art50 ?

As I understand it, there are several ways still for Boris to get a General Election. Those opposing him in this, and at the moment getting the upper hand and their law enacted, must fear that when that election comes, Boris will return with a large majority.
He then presents a Bill making a law which overturns the one passed last night.
It seems impossible that a General Election can be prevented. (Is there any expert on this who can say how it could be?)
And if it can't be, how can what is happening now be anything other than a delay?

 

[clubchamp98]

Every MP should be able to vote freely how they wish - its a democratic society , that’s been thrown around for a while now so it must apply to the people that are supposed to be leading this country - throwing people out because they show free to will is not democratic. It’s up to the “leader” to re-evaluate things to get his party together , it can’t be and never should be “my way or the high way” - that’s not the society we live in - that’s dictatorship.

And do people really think the Tory’s under the leadership are going actually get a clear majority on their own? People do understand that the country is split right down the middle - there is every chance the majority of the country don’t want Brexit now , every chance , and are people really going to vote for Johnson to lead the country ? He is no better than Corbyn

They are both an embarrassment to our country and it just shows what a pathetic state our politics is in right now

All this because the Tory government didn’t think clearly enough when they went about this referendum- congrats they have screwed the country and put a massive divide in it that won’t heal

While agreeing most of this .
The main problem for me is we really don’t know what the people want.
We know what the ones who could be bothered to vote want.
I have heard people complain and when asked say” I don’t bother voting” that’s how we ended up with this bunch of nomarks.

What amuses me most is the sheer arrogance on both sides.
What makes Corbyn think the EU will give him a good deal with no mechanism to walk away?
Boris has put all his eggs in one basket and MPs have trodden on them.

 

[IanM]

I am pleased to see the Leader of HM Opposition so anxious to ensure the income of the German Car Industry!

 

[SocketRocket]

I don’t think it would give time Bri, he’s playing games, Parliament want No Deal off the table, his actions since becoming PM have caused this. Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, etc, all singing from the 1 song sheet, either he’s incredibly stupid or brilliant, my money ain’t on brilliant.

What actions are these then. Trying to get a better deal?

 

[Colonel Bogey]

As I understand it, there are several ways still for Boris to get a General Election. Those opposing him in this, and at the moment getting the upper hand and their law enacted, must fear that when that election comes, Boris will return with a large majority.
He then presents a Bill making a law which overturns the one passed last night.
It seems impossible that a General Election can be prevented. (Is there any expert on this who can say how it could be?)
And if it can't be, how can what is happening now be anything other than a delay?

Wouldn't he then need a vote on this?

 

[SocketRocket]

I guess Jonathan Pie is something you don't understand. Colour me shocked.

Oh, I understand it alright, unlike you I think its twaddle.

 

[Beezerk]

Wouldn't he then need a vote on this?

He'd get it passed easily with a decent majority, maybe why he's dumped those against it the other day?

 

[clubchamp98]

Wouldn't he then need a vote on this?

Yes but he would have a majority in the house after winning the General Election.
The problem would be a hung parliament and we would be back to square one.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

While agreeing most of this .
The main problem for me is we really don’t know what the people want.
We know what the ones who could be bothered to vote want.
I have heard people complain and when asked say” I don’t bother voting” that’s how we ended up with this bunch of nomarks.

What amuses me most is the sheer arrogance on both sides.
What makes Corbyn think the EU will give him a good deal with no mechanism to walk away?
Boris has put all his eggs in one basket and MPs have trodden on them.

If Boris can get his election then I don't think the last few days have damaged him. If anything it separates him from the other parties quite clearly. He will position the party as the only option if you want to leave. Vote Lab/Lib and the UK could be stuck in this situation for many years to come. He will make the election as the Conservatives being the saviours, 'if only the others were not blocking them'.

 

[SocketRocket]

We are discussing the PM, please explain how/why you or anyone believe that suddenly after nearly 3 years he can get a deal that his party failed to get.
Why should the rest of Parliament trust him, his own Party don’t.

He had a chance to get a better deal because he isnt a remainer in leavers clothes and is prepared to push the no deal button. Something the EU is very worried about.

 

[Blue in Munich]

We are discussing the PM, please explain how/why you or anyone believe that suddenly after nearly 3 years he can get a deal that his party failed to get.
Why should the rest of Parliament trust him, his own Party don’t.

Because he actually wants to leave and May didn’t. At least he could have done it until Parliament did his legs.

 

[Beezerk]

If Boris can get his election then I don't think the last few days have damaged him. If anything it separates him from the other parties quite clearly. He will position the party as the only option if you want to leave. Vote Lab/Lib and the UK could be stuck in this situation for many years to come. He will make the election as the Conservatives being the saviours, 'if only the others were not blocking them'.

His only problem I can see is walking the fine line of no deal just enough to hoover up Farages votes, but while not sounding too extreme for regular leavers who may not want no deal.
I don't think people are giving BJ enough credit, he surely must have had a long term plan before he took up office, it's just a matter of if it's still going as part his plan 🤣

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Because he actually wants to leave and May didn’t. At least he could have done it until Parliament did his legs.

We are risking it all on a bluff then?
What if the EU says, “OK Boris, we’ll extend the deadline and renegotiate”
Do you want him to say no and crash us out?
What are the risks of crashing out? Nobody knows and the price could be too high, personally prefer a deal.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

He had a chance to get a better deal because he isnt a remainer in leavers clothes and is prepared to push the no deal button. Something the EU is very worried about.

What exactly is it that the EU is worried about - why does us leaving with no deal worry them?

 

[Hobbit]

I don’t think it would give time Bri, he’s playing games, Parliament want No Deal off the table, his actions since becoming PM have caused this. Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, etc, all singing from the 1 song sheet, either he’s incredibly stupid or brilliant, my money ain’t on brilliant.

I disagree on the time issue. If the election was 13th Oct, 14 days before the Brexit date, why couldn't an incoming PM ask for a further extension? I'm fairly certain the EU would expect it, assuming the Tories didn't win, as they've been clear they don't want a No Deal Brexit.

For me, taking No Deal off the table hands a massive advantage to the EU. Would you go into a car dealership and say I'll definitely buy that car and then expect the best deal. The dealer knows you will accept second best because you're buying it regardless. Its just about as stupid as you can get.

As for Boris's do or die, why not? If the current deal is the best the EU has to offer, as they've said many times before, No Deal is better. We've already heard rumblings from France and Germany of a better offer. And the Irish are seriously setting looking to set up checks away from the border - see the Beeb's website. I'm inclined to think Boris's posturing is having the desired effect.

But hey. let's cut his negotiating legs from under him.

Too many people are making their opinions based on personalities instead of the issues. Boris is a .. of the first water but at least he looked like the issue was moving forward.

 

[IanM]

why does us leaving with no deal worry them?

No divorce settlement, The UK is their biggest EXPORT market so will be subject to whatever tariffs we impose on them. etc

Head of German Central Bank gave very excellent appraisal of this recently, but you'll do well to find it! You don't think media coverage is impartial do you?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

His only problem I can see is walking the fine line of no deal just enough to hoover up Farages votes, but while not sounding too extreme for regular leavers who may not want no deal.
I don't think people are giving BJ enough credit, he surely must have had a long term plan before he took up office, it's just a matter of if it's still going as part his plan 🤣

Then if you’re right about a long term plan it once again goes against his character, ie plotting behind his leaders back!

 

[SocketRocket]

We are risking it all on a bluff then?
What if the EU says, “OK Boris, we’ll extend the deadline and renegotiate”
Do you want him to say no and crash us out?
What are the risks of crashing out? Nobody knows and the price could be too high, personally prefer a deal.

But what kind of renegotiation would the EU carry out? They hold all the cards and dont want us to leave and this situation has been created by those that voted for this current delaying bill that just keeps kicking the can down the road.