Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Mudball]

Whoever made this... awesome...

 

[SocketRocket]

There is some readable literature around at the moment commenting on the parallels between the past rise of fascism and the current direction of our world politics, and on how tyranny can rise in a modern democracy and the means it might use to try and do so.

Things like politicians making public attacks on journalism, sloganism becoming more prevalent with little nuance behind it, politicians publicly denying facts and getting away with it. Anyone see anything like that at that moment in the world?

It’s too easy for you Guys to shout you should be ashamed of yourself and you need help- I think that you should have a quick read through some of the available current academic thinking.

I’ve no doubt you will disagree with it but perhaps allow room for some nuance in your opinions.

I dont disagree completely however the rise of the far right gets exaggerated, its not a big threat. The conditions you portray tend to be prevalent with extreme left governments and political aggitators, a bigger threat to democracy at this time comes from the likes of Corbyn. Political subtifuse has always been the prefered politics of the far left.

I stand by my comments to #kellfire, his parallels between the present government and the third reich is appaling and unworthy of defense. You are of course welcome to your views on the world order but do you really defend these comments?

 

[Tashyboy]

I dont disagree completely however the rise of the far right gets exaggerated, its not a big threat. The conditions you portray tend to be prevalent with extreme left governments and political aggitators, a bigger threat to democracy at this time comes from the likes of Corbyn. Political subtifuse has always been the prefered politics of the far left.

I stand by my comments to #kellfire, his parallels between the present government and the third reich is appaling and unworthy of defense. You are of course welcome to your views on the world order but do you really defend these comments?

Odd someone should compare this country to the third reach. If I had to make a comparison, the way the EU had back doored a lot of its now not wanted policies, rules, laws etc. I would of thought that was more in keeping with kellfires comparisons. 🤔 Maybe it's a good job we have Winston Johnson 😖

 

[Old Skier]

Odd someone should compare this country to the third reach. If I had to make a comparison, the way the EU had back doored a lot of its now not wanted policies, rules, laws etc. I would of thought that was more in keeping with kellfires comparisons. 🤔 Maybe it's a good job we have Winston Johnson 😖

Which is why the likes of @killfire want to remain

 

[Hobbit]

The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral. Proving that is impossible. All the MP's, and Bercow, can do now is hope to take control of parliament in the few days they have available and, as they did with May, amend the date for Brexit. The problem with that is just who is going to go to the EU and ask for that extension? Can parliament instruct the PM to ask for the extension? Was May forced to ask or was it what she wanted anyway? And what will the EU's response be?

If parliament can't force through the amendment, does it have time for a No Confidence vote? And if it does, and Boris runs down the clock for 13 of the 14 days he has to respond to the No Confidence vote is there still enough time to fit in an election AND the incoming govt stop Brexit?

 

[Tashyboy]

The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral. Proving that is impossible. All the MP's, and Bercow, can do now is hope to take control of parliament in the few days they have available and, as they did with May, amend the date for Brexit. The problem with that is just who is going to go to the EU and ask for that extension? Can parliament instruct the PM to ask for the extension? Was May forced to ask or was it what she wanted anyway? And what will the EU's response be?

If parliament can't force through the amendment, does it have time for a No Confidence vote? And if it does, and Boris runs down the clock for 13 of the 14 days he has to respond to the No Confidence vote is there still enough time to fit in an election AND the incoming govt stop Brexit?

In all honesty Hobbit, I think anything is possible. Going back to the day that David Cameron gave us the vote per the manifesto. Who would of thought three years later we would be where we are now. Which to be honest am not exactly sure where we are. What I do know is that we should already be out, but where not. So another extension. Don't rule that out. Quite frankly I wouldn't rule anything out. Still struggling to get my head around why the MPs are so against no deal when they cannot agree on any deal. 🤔

 

[Hitdaball]

I dont disagree completely however the rise of the far right gets exaggerated, its not a big threat. The conditions you portray tend to be prevalent with extreme left governments and political aggitators, a bigger threat to democracy at this time comes from the likes of Corbyn. Political subtifuse has always been the prefered politics of the far left.

I stand by my comments to #kellfire, his parallels between the present government and the third reich is appaling and unworthy of defense. You are of course welcome to your views on the world order but do you really defend these comments?

Yes both extreme right and left can and have removed democracy when they think they can get away with.

How , in your view , is Corbyn a threat to democracy? I’d be interested to know.

Re Kellfire I would defend his right to express a view which , as I already suggested in any case , academia would have some sympathy with. I’m one of those people who still hasn’t given up on experts.

 

[Hitdaball]

In all honesty Hobbit, I think anything is possible. Going back to the day that David Cameron gave us the vote per the manifesto. Who would of thought three years later we would be where we are now. Which to be honest am not exactly sure where we are. What I do know is that we should already be out, but where not. So another extension. Don't rule that out. Quite frankly I wouldn't rule anything out. Still struggling to get my head around why the MPs are so against no deal when they cannot agree on any deal. 🤔

Tashy we are three years later in this total *** storm because not one of the leave campaign leaders had a single sniff of a plan of what a deal looked like and how they would achieve it. Not that you would know that by none of the blame being directed towards them.

 

[SocketRocket]

The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral.

Its a tactic just like taking over parliamentary business by MPs, like Burcow casting away neutrality, like saying no deal must be stopped but not being prepared to back any deal other than binning article 50. Its turned into dog eats dog in parliament and is a disgrace to the people who believed their vote was worth something. A house pf turds now.

 

[Hobbit]

Its a tactic just like taking over parliamentary business by MPs, like Burcow casting away neutrality, like saying no deal must be stopped but not being prepared to back any deal other than binning article 50. Its turned into dog eats dog in parliament and is a disgrace to the people who believed their vote was worth something. A house pf turds now.

I don't doubt its a tactic but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes both extreme right and left can and have removed democracy when they think they can get away with.

How , in your view , is Corbyn a threat to democracy? I’d be interested to know.

Re Kellfire I would defend his right to express a view which , as I already suggested in any case , academia would have some sympathy with. I’m one of those people who still hasn’t given up on experts.

Corbyn is a man who has no principles in his quest to install his Neo-Marxist ideals into government. As a lifelong eurosceptic he now bins his long held views on the EU to grab a last chance as an aging politician to lever himself into No 10, then incorporate an extreme socialist program of state control and policies that will stifle enterprise and encourage more and more control over peoples lives, such governments have never succeeded and always reduce personal freedoms in their quest for total state control.

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't doubt its a tactic but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

They started it 😉

 

[Tashyboy]

Hitdaball, Re Corbyn, I honestly don't get him or the direction that Labour are going. Don't get me wrong. I worked in Mining for 36 years. I should be a Labour fan through and through. Yet for all of my years I have been a floating voter. This current crop of Labour MPs is quite frankly for me unelectable. My trouble with Corbyn is he cannot sort out his own party yet feels, no believes he is the answer to all our prayers and problems. He is in my top ten of worst politicians of all time. I don't think I have met anyone who has ever seen our country in such a political mess. Labour should be smashing this government. But it has to try and build fragile pacts with other party's far left and right wing MPs to try to defeat a government. Don't even get me started on Diane Abbott, apparently she wants us to stop buying off Amazon til the fires are put out. I heard Corbyn told her the other day that crocodiles grow up to 15 feet. She replied she had only seen one with 4 feet.
I always try to have an open mind and am open to what the appeal of Corbyn is but I just don't see it.
Don't get me wrong it's not just Corbyn I dislike. I think for far to long the electorate, and I mean voters of labour, Tory, SNP, remainers, leavers, etc etc have been treated like bloody idiots for far to long. I think many seasoned MPs are in for a shock in the next election.
Our latest Mayoral elections booted out our Independant Mayor by two votes, she lost to the third choice Labour candidate. She has now been choosen as the Brexit candidate for the next election. WT bloody hell is that all about. An ex Tory member, independant Mayor, booted out by Mansfield is chosen as a candidate. The Brexit party has lost my vote.

 

[Hitdaball]

Corbyn is a man who has no principles in his quest to install his Neo-Marxist ideals into government. As a lifelong eurosceptic he now bins his long held views on the EU to grab a last chance as an aging politician to lever himself into No 10, then incorporate an extreme socialist program of state control and policies that will stifle enterprise and encourage more and more control over peoples lives, such governments have never succeeded and always reduce personal freedoms in their quest for total state control.

And for me there’s the rub.

It’s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?), but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad. There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.

 

[Foxholer]

And for me there’s the rub.

It’s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?), but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad. There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.

And for me there’s the rub.

It’s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?), but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad. There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.

Or Manchester for that matter!

To me, it's simply that Nordic politics is generally 'centrist', while Moscow is definitely extreme! Tories have generally successfully described Labour as 'extreme', and that's especially easy currently. Tories have generally avoided being 'accused' of being too right-wing (save the occasional proof of Godwins Law on here) mainly, imo, because they pitch themselves/policies pretty much where the British people generally aspire to.

I use a clockface (showing parties leanings as left or right of 12 o'clock) to describe positions...Nordic (and Kiwi) are about 5 to 1 (or 5 past 11); UK about 8 mins past 10; US about 10 past 3! Btw. Itaiy's clock is broken!

 

[Blue in Munich]

The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral. Proving that is impossible. All the MP's, and Bercow, can do now is hope to take control of parliament in the few days they have available and, as they did with May, amend the date for Brexit. The problem with that is just who is going to go to the EU and ask for that extension? Can parliament instruct the PM to ask for the extension? Was May forced to ask or was it what she wanted anyway? And what will the EU's response be?

If parliament can't force through the amendment, does it have time for a No Confidence vote? And if it does, and Boris runs down the clock for 13 of the 14 days he has to respond to the No Confidence vote is there still enough time to fit in an election AND the incoming govt stop Brexit?

Maybe if they'd extracted their collective thumb from their collective bum and used some of the days they previously had there wouldn't be an issue Brian. I mean, they've only had about 1,000 days to sort this out and they're now whining about losing how many?

The one they have conclusively achieved is rto emove from me any lingering vestige of respect that I might have had for politicians. I've dealt with no shortage of scrotes in my time and I'm beginning to think every one of them had more principles than this rabble.

 

[Old Skier]

And for me there’s the rub.

It’s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?), but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad. There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.

The difference is that Corbyn is a stated Marxist as are those closed to him. Never heard anyone in the Tory Party express their desire to be a a far right extremist.

 

[Hitdaball]

The difference is that Corbyn is a stated Marxist as are those closed to him. Never heard anyone in the Tory Party express their desire to be a a far right extremist.

It would be hard to know what Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson politics are to a large extent - they are whatever they need to be at any point in time to gain power. He is man of no enduring principles.

I imagine if the NHS didn’t exist now, in the current political climate some of you folks would be calling someone like Bevan a communist - Pursuing hard left policies like universal health care free at the point of use in a nationalised institution.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Seven Tory ministers tell us how dishonest and undemocratic proroguing parliament for political gain is.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1167528494303252480

 

[patricks148]

Corbyn is a man who has no principles in his quest to install his Neo-Marxist ideals into government. As a lifelong eurosceptic he now bins his long held views on the EU to grab a last chance as an aging politician to lever himself into No 10, then incorporate an extreme socialist program of state control and policies that will stifle enterprise and encourage more and more control over peoples lives, such governments have never succeeded and always reduce personal freedoms in their quest for total state control.

yes what a dispicable man, how dare he want to improve the lives of people other than the rich, get hundreds of thousands out of having to use food banks, and eradicate poverty. have a decent NHS that is adq funded and not sold off for profit... what a scumbag