Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 15344]

The only point I made was they didn't vote when they had the chance. I didn't state how they might have voted.

But a question back at you, and using a few of your words; how arrogant is it to dismiss the older generation by suggesting they no longer vote if they aren't working and have reached 60? And does that mean that all the young ones at uni, i.e. not working shouldn't be allowed to vote?

Your post is just as appalling as those decrying the younger generation. You tar yourself, very well, with the same brush.

Some didn’t vote - for many reasons , lack of understanding , engagement, busy lives , being disenchanted by the whole political process , a lack of trust - many reasons beyond just “not caring”

Why is it “arrogant “ to suggest a vote should only be given to someone who will be affected directly by the results ? People in Uni will be affected because it’s their future is it not ? But if someone is retired , no longer needs to work , doesn’t benefit from the UK being in the EU and it won’t affect them either way why should they have a say. It’s just a counter to people suggesting that the youth aren’t capable

 

[chrisd]

Whoa a lot of statements here being thrown at the younger generation that isn’t great

Younger generation not having the clarity to steer the country in the “right” direction ?! What’s the right direction - is that the direction you want it to go towards , since when does it make it “right” ?

Shall we just stop them voting then ? If they clearly don’t know what is best for the country why bother letting them vote - what age shall we start allowing them a voice ?

You “older generation “ were allowed to shape your future - were given a voice so why can’t the current younger generation be allowed to shape their future ?

How arrogant is it to dismiss them with such disdain

The older generation stating - I’m certain the youth will benefit from my decision? What if you are wrong - what make your decision more right than theirs ? They are the ones working day and night alongside their neighbours and can see the benefits that brings - maybe instead of presuming what you think is right for the “younger generation” actually ask them what they want and how they want to move forward- it’s them that will have to live with whatever decision is made so maybe it’s best they make the choice as opposed to people who won’t be affected

Maybe the best way is to cut off the vote at say anyone who is still working only and under the age of 60 - that’s who it’s going to affected

And yes for the referendum there was just 50% of people aged between 18 and 30 I think it was who voted - could be for all manner of reasons beyond “not caring” but I have a feeling if there was a second vote there would be a very big turnout from them. The younger generation want to stay in the EU , they see the benefits and it appears want to keep that strong relationship in their futures - surely that can’t be dismissed so easily.

When many here were young we didn't get to vote until we were 21 as, I assume, it was thought that we didn't have enough life experience to fully understand what we were voting for. Many if us had left school at 15 and were in full time work and were probably as streetwise as any 20+ year old is today.

We know at 65 much more than we knew at 25 and, has been said before, in other cultures the young defer to the elderly for advice and I'm reasonably assured that most 65 year olds understand life, and the ramification of decisions made better than most 25 year olds. If, however, the younger generation who qualified to vote in the referendum had bothered to get themselves down to the polling station and vote then they maybe could have achieved the outcomes they wanted, assuming the majority who didn't vote would be remainers which is by no means a given. Clearly they are not as clever as you may think if they couldn't work out that there vote mattered.

Finally, only history and opinion will tell if decisions made now were right or wrong and the younger generation of now will undoubtedly be told in time by the youngsters of the future how they've messed it up but you know what - if you change things you can never truly know what would have happened had you steered the original course

 

[Hobbit]

Some didn’t vote - for many reasons , lack of understanding , engagement, busy lives , being disenchanted by the whole political process , a lack of trust - many reasons beyond just “not caring”

Why is it “arrogant “ to suggest a vote should only be given to someone who will be affected directly by the results ? People in Uni will be affected because it’s their future is it not ? But if someone is retired , no longer needs to work , doesn’t benefit from the UK being in the EU and it won’t affect them either way why should they have a say. It’s just a counter to people suggesting that the youth aren’t capable

You are making excuses for them, poor, weak excuses. Funnily enough those same excuses could be applied to any age group. And it was you that stereotyped a demographic by age and first used the word arrogance around it. Don't try and squirm out from under. Your post is as appallingly bad as those who decried the young.

I've worked extensively with the young. They are, in the main, very intelligent, articulate and have boundless energy, especially when its something they're interested in. But if they are not interested..... they didn't vote.

You dismiss the old with the same arrogance some of the old dismissed the young. You should be ashamed of yourself. Honestly, you've hit a new low with this one.

 

[Papas1982]

Some didn’t vote - for many reasons , lack of understanding , engagement, busy lives , being disenchanted by the whole political process , a lack of trust - many reasons beyond just “not caring”

Why is it “arrogant “ to suggest a vote should only be given to someone who will be affected directly by the results ? People in Uni will be affected because it’s their future is it not ? But if someone is retired , no longer needs to work , doesn’t benefit from the UK being in the EU and it won’t affect them either way why should they have a say. It’s just a counter to people suggesting that the youth aren’t capable

How does that matter? Lots of people don’t directly benefit from being in the Eu. If none of those voted. That’d include a lot of the youngsters too.

 

[patricks148]

Kiss me where the sun don't shine
The past was yours
But the future's mine

you're all out of tiiimme.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are making excuses for them, poor, weak excuses. Funnily enough those same excuses could be applied to any age group. And it was you that stereotyped a demographic by age and first used the word arrogance around it. Don't try and squirm out from under. Your post is as appallingly bad as those who decried the young.

I've worked extensively with the young. They are, in the main, very intelligent, articulate and have boundless energy, especially when its something they're interested in. But if they are not interested..... they didn't vote.

You dismiss the old with the same arrogance some of the old dismissed the young. You should be ashamed of yourself. Honestly, you've hit a new low with this one.

Making excuse ? Nah giving reasons , reasons that young people gave for not voting first time - there was also the ones that placed their trust in their elders to look after their future , going by recent reports over the last couple of years a great deal amount of them seem let down by the elders for voting to leave.

A lot of negative posts about the youth over the last 12 hours - if you believe you trust the youth then I don’t see you countering the various posts on here from people downtrodding their abilities for the future

And I don’t have anything to be ashamed about - I believe the youth should be able to make their own choices and not have older generation make them for them and dismiss them so easily. They are the countries future they are the ones who have to deal with the decisions and maybe it’s time people listened to them - if they make mistakes so be it , everyone else has - mistakes will always be made but it won’t be by the people voting but by the people everyone entrusts with the power.

 

[Hobbit]

Making excuse ? Nah giving reasons , reasons that young people gave for not voting first time - there was also the ones that placed their trust in their elders to look after their future , going by recent reports over the last couple of years a great deal amount of them seem let down by the elders for voting to leave.

A lot of negative posts about the youth over the last 12 hours - if you believe you trust the youth then I don’t see you countering the various posts on here from people downtrodding their abilities for the future

And I don’t have anything to be ashamed about - I believe the youth should be able to make their own choices and not have older generation make them for them and dismiss them so easily. They are the countries future they are the ones who have to deal with the decisions and maybe it’s time people listened to them - if they make mistakes so be it , everyone else has - mistakes will always be made but it won’t be by the people voting but by the people everyone entrusts with the power.

You have discriminated against the old. DISCRIMINATION. One of the very worst facets of any society, and you're guilty of it. If you can't see that I pity you. You perpetuate the divisions in society that many would like to see ended. Rather than engage with reasoned argument you suggest the old shouldn't have a say. Very poor form Phil. Sit back and have think about the position you've chosen in this, i.e. to discriminate.

As for the youth, I believe the voting age should be reduced to 16. I trust the young.

The younger generation have the same opportunity as the old to vote. And when the results of a vote are declared, if it comes out that a particular demographic has won, thats democracy.

 

[Hacker Khan]

When many here were young we didn't get to vote until we were 21 as, I assume, it was thought that we didn't have enough life experience to fully understand what we were voting for. Many if us had left school at 15 and were in full time work and were probably as streetwise as any 20+ year old is today.

We know at 65 much more than we knew at 25 and, has been said before, in other cultures the young defer to the elderly for advice and I'm reasonably assured that most 65 year olds understand life, and the ramification of decisions made better than most 25 year olds. If, however, the younger generation who qualified to vote in the referendum had bothered to get themselves down to the polling station and vote then they maybe could have achieved the outcomes they wanted, assuming the majority who didn't vote would be remainers which is by no means a given. Clearly they are not as clever as you may think if they couldn't work out that there vote mattered.

Finally, only history and opinion will tell if decisions made now were right or wrong and the younger generation of now will undoubtedly be told in time by the youngsters of the future how they've messed it up but you know what - if you change things you can never truly know what would have happened had you steered the original course

Pure conjecture, you are equating age with wisdom, surviving on this earth with understanding the current socio-economic and environmental climate.

I could just as easily say I know plenty of over 65s who are completely out of touch with modern society, stuck in the past, fear change in an increasingly rapidly changing technological society, most modern technology confuses and scares them, automation means a lot of the skills they had are no longer relevant, they still get all their views on life from the Daily Telegraph, they are analogue in a digital world and I wouldn't trust them to make a sensible decision on the future of the country based on its current political, social and environmental challenges in a million years. But enough about my parents, I still love them anyway. But give me the choice between listening to and agreeing with my 13 year old daughter or my parents on the biggest challenges facing society and the best way forwards then truth be told, it's not a clear cut decision by any means.

There are some stupid out of touch old people and some lazy feckless young people, as well as some very plugged in elderly people and engaged young people. They all had a chance to vote, some took that chance and some did not. Dismissing the views of the young as they did not vote in large numbers is dangerous IMHO but I expect those that did not will not make the some mistake again. Which fills me with some optimism for the future.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

You have discriminated against the old. DISCRIMINATION. One of the very worst facets of any society, and you're guilty of it. If you can't see that I pity you. You perpetuate the divisions in society that many would like to see ended. Rather than engage with reasoned argument you suggest the old shouldn't have a say. Very poor form Phil. Sit back and have think about the position you've chosen in this, i.e. to discriminate.

As for the youth, I believe the voting age should be reduced to 16. I trust the young.

The younger generation have the same opportunity as the old to vote. And when the results of a vote are declared, if it comes out that a particular demographic has won, thats democracy.

But the elderly have made a complete Horlicks of it since 1980 and have compounded their errors since.
Desperately denying 16/17 year olds voting rights.
A Parliament mechanism that belongs either in a museum or a madhouse.
A Press and TV news system that is feeding the vulnerable lies and propaganda. [slowly getting sorted out by social media].
Time for wholesale change

 

[Old Skier]

The age range of the Brexit referendum in 2016.

You need to address the younger generation. Who's fault is it that they don't wish to engage. Bleating about something the older generation have no control over.

 

[Old Skier]

Whoa a lot of statements here being thrown at the younger generation that isn’t great

Younger generation not having the clarity to steer the country in the “right” direction ?! What’s the right direction - is that the direction you want it to go towards , since when does it make it “right” ?

Shall we just stop them voting then ? If they clearly don’t know what is best for the country why bother letting them vote - what age shall we start allowing them a voice ?

You “older generation “ were allowed to shape your future - were given a voice so why can’t the current younger generation be allowed to shape their future ?

How arrogant is it to dismiss them with such disdain

The older generation stating - I’m certain the youth will benefit from my decision? What if you are wrong - what make your decision more right than theirs ? They are the ones working day and night alongside their neighbours and can see the benefits that brings - maybe instead of presuming what you think is right for the “younger generation” actually ask them what they want and how they want to move forward- it’s them that will have to live with whatever decision is made so maybe it’s best they make the choice as opposed to people who won’t be affected

Maybe the best way is to cut off the vote at say anyone who is still working only and under the age of 60 - that’s who it’s going to affected

And yes for the referendum there was just 50% of people aged between 18 and 30 I think it was who voted - could be for all manner of reasons beyond “not caring” but I have a feeling if there was a second vote there would be a very big turnout from them. The younger generation want to stay in the EU , they see the benefits and it appears want to keep that strong relationship in their futures - surely that can’t be dismissed so easily.

It's not about stopping the youth voting. How did you come to that conclusions. It's about exactly the opposite, the younger voters not bothering.

We gave a remainer posting and clutching at straws as to why remain lost. Blame those that failed to vote if the poster is so certain they were going to vote remain. How he came to that conclusions God only knows.

 

[Old Skier]

But the elderly have made a complete Horlicks of it since 1980 and have compounded their errors since.
Desperately denying 16/17 year olds voting rights.
A Parliament mechanism that belongs either in a museum or a madhouse.
A Press and TV news system that is feeding the vulnerable lies and propaganda. [slowly getting sorted out by social media].
Time for wholesale change

The momentum solution.

 

[MegaSteve]

The now elderly were probably amongst the pillocks that were hoodwinked into voting to join in the first place... Everyone I was listening to, politically, back in the day warned the 'working class' would pay the highest penalty for joining... And, so it came to pass...

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The now elderly were probably amongst the pillocks that were hoodwinked into voting to join in the first place... Everyone I was listening to, politically, back in the day warned the 'working class' would pay the highest penalty for joining... And, so it came to pass...

What penalty exactly do you believe the “working class” has paid because of joining the EU ?

 

[Hacker Khan]

You need to address the younger generation. Who's fault is it that they don't wish to engage. Bleating about something the older generation have no control over.

A political system and discourse that is no longer for for purpose (I've seen more adult behaviour in KS1 classes than most PMQs), is increasingly polarised, full of people at the top level that are mostly in it for personal gain or to forwards their own specific ideology and that mostly does not reflect or address the concerns of a younger generation?

 

[chrisd]

Pure conjecture, you are equating age with wisdom, surviving on this earth with understanding the current socio-economic and environmental climate.

I could just as easily say I know plenty of over 65s who are completely out of touch with modern society, stuck in the past, fear change in an increasingly rapidly changing technological society, most modern technology confuses and scares them, automation means a lot of the skills they had are no longer relevant, they still get all their views on life from the Daily Telegraph, they are analogue in a digital world and I wouldn't trust them to make a sensible decision on the future of the country based on its current political, social and environmental challenges in a million years. But enough about my parents, I still love them anyway. But give me the choice between listening to and agreeing with my 13 year old daughter or my parents on the biggest challenges facing society and the best way forwards then truth be told, it's not a clear cut decision by any means.

There are some stupid out of touch old people and some lazy feckless young people, as well as some very plugged in elderly people and engaged young people. They all had a chance to vote, some took that chance and some did not. Dismissing the views of the young as they did not vote in large numbers is dangerous IMHO but I expect those that did not will not make the some mistake again. Which fills me with some optimism for the future.

For the great majority age brings wisdom. We all know idiots across the generations but equally we know wise old and young people but, taking a cross section, the average 65 year old will have more life experiences to guide their decision making than the average 17 year old.

Even if you just isolate voting, a large percentage of youngsters didn't vote in the referendum wheras older people did because experience tells them that their views count, I suspect that many youngsters will not make the same mistake a second time.

People mature as they age, they learn from their elders they need guidance until eventually they can form their own opinions which, of course could be polar opposite of their parents/teachers view but they have to start from some taught learning. I'm sure your 13 year old is aware of challenges etc and that she maybe able to teach your parents a thing or two but I doubt at that age she is fully rounded enough in life skills to have as many right answers as your parents - the old teach the young, the young take in what they want, change what they don't and then teach their young what they believe is right and do on .....

 

[Old Skier]

A political system and discourse that is no longer for for purpose (I've seen more adult behaviour in KS1 classes than most PMQs), is increasingly polarised, full of people at the top level that are mostly in it for personal gain or to forwards their own specific ideology and that mostly does not reflect or address the concerns of a younger generation?

Change is needed, change can only be achieved by participating.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Change is needed, change can only be achieved by participating.

I agree, and they have learned that the hard way.

 

[Old Skier]

I agree, and they have learned that the hard way.

I'm not convinced but I hope your right but if that was true I would expect a greater turnout than we just had.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

It does seem that whoever becomes Tory leader and thus PM, will be faced with getting their deal ( or no deal) voted through the HoC.
However, taking the view that the referendum ,by definition , is a greater "power to decide" than the HoC, the Government should take us out of the EU, and leave the HoC out of it.
Now someone is going to point out ,rightly,that somewhere along the line the judges were approached to rule that the final say on a deal, should rest with Parliament, and thus we have the ensuing fiasco.
I argue that who the hell are the judges to decide that the Government cannot implement the will of the people? We have a vote involving millions, any adult in the Country who wants to vote, called a referendum, and then some few judges can ignore all that and pass the issue to a few hundred to decide instead?
The new PM should be looking to find a way , if at all possible, to overrule those judges and HoC and get on with doing what the Country instructed.
There must be a legal requirement somewhere that referenda results are binding. Otherwise , what is the point??.