Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Bunkermagnet]

Has there been a worse PM than TM? I thought Major and Brown would be the worst in my lifetime but she has surpassed them quite comfortably. Totally insular, refused to listen to her cabinet, her mp's. the wider public. She ploughed on with a single policy that was destined to fail and didn't have the skills to change course. The rest of her leadership, anyone remember anything she has done that was worthwhile?

Do you not think what she had was a poisoned chalice? No-one who took over after Camerons scarpered was going to get this through with the split being so equal.

 

[Kellfire]

We'll never know if Theresa May could have been a good PM, in my opinion. I highly doubt any PM would have done better with the car crash that is Brexit. We had the weaker negotiating position and there was no way the EU were ever going to screw themselves over in those negotiations. No one would have been able to get the all-singing deal that some think she could have. But we all need someone to blame, I guess, and for Brexiteers it will never be themselves for putting the government in an unwinnable position.

Ugh, I was defending a Tory there. That felt wrong.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Do you not think what she had was a poisoned chalice? No-one who took over after Camerons scarpered was going to get this through with the split being so equal.

To an extent but I also think too many other decisions were within her control and she handled them badly.

1/ She choose to stand as PM knowing full well the situation

2/ She had a workable majority, chose to run an early election and then ran the worse campaign in living memory against the worst Labour leader since Michael Foot

3/ What did she do for 18 months after enacting Article 50? The famed Chequers meeting should have happened on day 1, not 18 months down the line

4/ Within days of Chequers the world and their wife was telling her the Chequers deal would fail. Why did she not react to that?

5/ She ploughed on negotiating a deal with the EU that everyone told her, bar a couple of advisers by all accounts, was doomed to fail back home. Her whole strategy was to push MP's to the brink in the hope that they would crack. When they didn't she was a startled rabbit with no alternative.

She has not had an easy time, I agree no one would have, but I think anyone would have struggled to have done a worse job.

 

[User62651]

Agree on your points on TM though. Completely hypocritical of her to cite compromise in her leaving speech when she spent years avoiding it. Will be the same issues with her successor. For the sake of progress I hope it's a hard Leaver just to move things along. There's other issues in this country we need to talk about.

Think I now agree there, they've sniped and snarled and frustrated from the fringes for so long one of them needs to take the reins and put their money where there mouth is, be that Baker, Johnson, Raab although I dont believe Johnson is a true leaver. If they dont they'll have Farage to deal with, current score Farage 2 Prime Ministers 0.
Keen to see what Gove does, he has flip flopped a bit like Labour to try and stay onside with everyone but I think that'll prove damaging.

As for May the job was always beyond her imo. Dont like to see the lady in tears but it's a tough job. Ultimately a leader MUST inspire, she never did. Trouble is who inspires from the potential replacements?...............


.....................still thinking...

 

[Foxholer]

You know Doon having not posted anything here for nearly four months it’s really dispiriting and rather sad that when I post something on my voting yesterday the first and immediate responses I get from the camp of the usual suspects are as sneeringly and condescendingly dismissive as they were to my posting four months ago. How sad.

On the other hand, aren't you pleased to note the consistency?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Think I now agree there, they've sniped and snarled and frustrated from the fringes for so long one of them needs to take the reins and put their money where there mouth is, be that Baker, Johnson, Raab although I dont believe Johnson is a true leaver. If they dont they'll have Farage to deal with, current score Farage 2 Prime Ministers 0.
Keen to see what Gove does, he has flip flopped a bit like Labour to try and stay onside with everyone but I think that'll prove damaging.

As for May the job was always beyond her imo. Dont like to see the lady in tears but it's a tough job. Ultimately a leader MUST inspire, she never did. Trouble is who inspires from the potential replacements?...............


.....................still thinking...

I'm sure there are a few who will inspire the Little Engenders who mostly make up the conservative party members.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

It's a damning indictment of our democracy that a group of 100,000 people will decide the direction of our country. Whenever a PM resigns, independent of their party, by default there should be a General Election.

Agree on your points on TM though. Completely hypocritical of her to cite compromise in her leaving speech when she spent years avoiding it. Will be the same issues with her successor. For the sake of progress I hope it's a hard Leaver just to move things along. There's other issues in this country we need to talk about.

Crocodile tears, remember this woman's history as Home Office minister and PM.
Universal Credit, Windrush, child poverty, Grenfell etc etc.

She should be shedding tears for her victims.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

One more thing...........the dancing

 

[Foxholer]

It's a damning indictment of our democracy that a group of 100,000 people will decide the direction of our country...

Er...What 100,000 people is this?

 

[Kellfire]

Er...What 100,000 people is this?

The Tory party members.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

We'll never know if Theresa May could have been a good PM, in my opinion. I highly doubt any PM would have done better with the car crash that is Brexit. We had the weaker negotiating position and there was no way the EU were ever going to screw themselves over in those negotiations. No one would have been able to get the all-singing deal that some think she could have. But we all need someone to blame, I guess, and for Brexiteers it will never be themselves for putting the government in an unwinnable position.

This was actually one of your better posts until you spoiled it by having the unnecessary pointless dig at the end

 

[User62651]

So is MV4 formally cancelled now then? The deal is actually dead and not Jon Snow dead?

Quick look I see it takes minimum 3 months of Conservative membership to get a vote in any Tory member issue, wise move or a lot of people would've readily spent £25 to join and have a say between the last 2 candidates.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

So is MV4 formally cancelled now then? The deal is actually dead and not Jon Snow dead?

Quick look I see it takes minimum 3 months of Conservative membership to get a vote in any Tory member issue, wise move or a lot of people would've readily spent £25 to join and have a say between the last 2 candidates.

Probably a lesson well learned after the debacle caused by Harriet Harmon and cheap Labour membership that allowed Corbyn to win through. Don't forget though, the last election did not even reach the members. It was done and dusted between the MP's and the members had no say. Could that happen again?

MV4, yes, deader than dead. Deader than (don't want to spoil it for anyone who still hasn't seen the final episode on catch up) a very dead person.

 

[Foxholer]

The Tory party members.

I trust that both you and jp5 realise that, unlike Labour, it's not Tory party members that elect their leader! It's Tory MPs that elect 'their leader'!

That, imo, is why Labour is at a distinct disadvantage. Tories elect the person they believe will most likely win the election, while Labour, where Union bloc voting still counts a huge amount, elect the candidate most closely aligned to their 'philosophy' (aka Corbyn currently and 'the wrong Milliband' before him)!

So not 100,000! It's actually 300!

 

[ger147]

So is MV4 formally cancelled now then? The deal is actually dead and not Jon Snow dead?

Quick look I see it takes minimum 3 months of Conservative membership to get a vote in any Tory member issue, wise move or a lot of people would've readily spent £25 to join and have a say between the last 2 candidates.

Depends on who the next PM is...

 

[ger147]

I trust that both you and jp5 realise that, unlike Labour, it's not Tory party members that elect their leader! It's Tory MPs that elect 'their leader'!

That, imo, is why Labour is at a distinct disadvantage. Tories elect the person they believe will most likely win the election, while Labour, where Union bloc voting still counts a huge amount, elect the candidate most closely aligned to their 'philosophy' (aka Corbyn currently and 'the wrong Milliband' before him)!

Afraid you're wrong in this one. The MP's get it down to 2 candidates then the Tory party membership vote on the 2 remaining candidates.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm sure there are a few who will inspire the Little Engenders who mostly make up the conservative party members.

Little Engenders?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I trust that both you and jp5 realise that, unlike Labour, it's not Tory party members that elect their leader! It's Tory MPs that elect 'their leader'!

That, imo, is why Labour is at a distinct disadvantage. Tories elect the person they believe will most likely win the election, while Labour, where Union bloc voting still counts a huge amount, elect the candidate most closely aligned to their 'philosophy' (aka Corbyn currently and 'the wrong Milliband' before him)!

Well, it's the Tory grandees and 1922 Commitee that decide more things Tory, along with help from members of the Bullingdon club.
Your average blue rinser has no real say despite whats said.

 

[Foxholer]

Afraid you're wrong in this one. The MP's get it down to 2 candidates then the Tory party membership vote on the 2 remaining candidates.

Good point! I'd forgotten that!

But the Parliamentary 'wing' have the major say, not the general Party members! And, if my memory serves me correctly, there's often a 'concession' - this was how May was elected, though Cameron won via the 'whole party' vote.

 

[Foxholer]

Well, it's the Tory grandees and 1922 Commitee that decide more things Tory, along with help from members of the Bullingdon club.
Your average blue rinser has no real say despite whats said.

H'mm! IYO!

But we, sort of, agree somewhat....Conservative election process is performed with the idea of 'who will get/keep us in power' uppermost! And that's an entirely reasonable atitude to take imo!