Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

You may have noticed that I didn't blame the people who voted. I blamed the people who fed them excrement from the start.

Can we agree there were falsehoods fed to both sides of the campaign that influenced some voters.

 

[SocketRocket]

Not really. She has met him previously very recently and they have very different views on this. It's a meeting she knows will fail. Equally she has met many people recently and paid lip service to all of them. Meet, ignore, meet, ignore.

She seems to like these Presidential style speeches but says very little in any of them. They are egotistical, nothing more.

Yes, there is normally a question session after.

 

[bluewolf]

Can we agree there were falsehoods fed to both sides of the campaign that influenced some voters.

Yes, but only one sides lies got us in the current mess. Can we agree on that?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

But when, last week, the WA was offered to the House in a form that both Corbyn and Starmer had previously said was acceptable (without involving the post-withdrawal relationship) Labour whipped against it.

Why, if not to try and score a party political point?

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes, but only one sides lies got us in the current mess. Can we agree on that?

Absolutely not. If Camo et al had not been so Vesipherous with their project fear lies then leave would have had a much bigger majority and we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[harpo_72]

I think we can both agree that history is not going to be kind to some people. Cameron and May will no doubt get the brunt of that. The rest will depend on the success of Brexit. If it's a failure then I suspect that the likes of Farage will become a historical joke. A clown figure of low repute. Bojo, Gove and R-M along the same lines.

RM and Bojo are, they have flip flopped and been self serving they are a disgrace.
TM could have gone down in history as being the victim of poor planning but current history takes that off the table.

 

[BubbaP]

Yes, but only one sides lies got us in the current mess. Can we agree on that?

Could apply to so many posts on this thread, from any point of view

🙂😉

 

[harpo_72]

Absolutely not. If Camo et al had not been so Vesipherous with their project fear lies then leave would have had a much bigger majority and we wouldn't be in this mess.

Bit of an exaggeration that really

 

[harpo_72]

Could apply to so many posts on this thread, from any point of view

🙂😉

Not vote Tory as they have too many right wing infiltrators ? Don’t vote labour because they don’t know if they want a sh@t or a haircut...? Such choice ! Hence my despair at a general election, it will be the same offering, there have not been many deselections.

 

[harpo_72]

Bit of an exaggeration that really

Bit like the leave campaign 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But when, last week, the WA was offered to the House in a form that both Corbyn and Starmer had previously said was acceptable (without involving the post-withdrawal relationship) Labour whipped against it.

Why, if not to try and score a party political point?

Because it was a seen by them and others as a bad deal and gave little hope for the future, now a possible future customs union etc could be involved in future discussions it gives TM a way forward, also could be a poison chalice for them both, if they don’t work it out it means the blame can be shared rather than thrown in a single direction.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Bit of an exaggeration that really

Massively .. if the remain campaign hadn’t banged on about project fear I think they would have won. This country is brilliant at going against the grain just to be stubborn and be like “can’t tell us what’s best”

Project fear will have pushed voters into protest votes and encouraged more people to vote against it who may not have even voted

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Because it was a seen by them and others as a bad deal and gave little hope for the future, now a possible future customs union etc could be involved in future discussions it gives TM a way forward, also could be a poison chalice for them both, if they don’t work it out it means the blame can be shared rather than thrown in a single direction.

But the vote on Friday had nothing to do with the post WA terms.

 

[bluewolf]

Absolutely not. If Camo et al had not been so Vesipherous with their project fear lies then leave would have had a much bigger majority and we wouldn't be in this mess.

Sorry Bri, but that is absolute nonsense. If The many aspects of the Leave campaign hadn't lied through their teeth then Leave wouldn't have won.
Both sides lied, but bearing in mind Leave won, then we can only really blame the Leave lies for the current predicament. It's ridiculous to suggest that the Remain campaign before the Referendum is somehow at fault in any way for the current failure of the Brexit process.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But the vote on Friday had nothing to do with the post WA terms.

Exactly, so her current position was nobody else could be involved and it was her way or the highway.
You could look at it cynically and suggest she could promise him all sorts of future discussions with the EU, get the deal through, resign as PM, then the next one ignores Corbyn as they themselves didn’t agree to their deal.

 

[SocketRocket]

Sorry Bri, but that is absolute nonsense. If The many aspects of the Leave campaign hadn't lied through their teeth then Leave wouldn't have won.
Both sides lied, but bearing in mind Leave won, then we can only really blame the Leave lies for the current predicament. It's ridiculous to suggest that the Remain campaign before the Referendum is somehow at fault in any way for the current failure of the Brexit process.

Its not absolute nonsense. You may disagree but its a point of view and one you are of course free to counter. I wouldnt suggest your view is complete rubbish just because I disagree with it though.

IMO the current malaise is due to the country having a mainly leave voting public and mainly remain parliament. I can only reiterate that we didnt vote based on Boris and his bus.

 

[Hobbit]

Sorry Bri, but that is absolute nonsense. If The many aspects of the Leave campaign hadn't lied through their teeth then Leave wouldn't have won.
Both sides lied, but bearing in mind Leave won, then we can only really blame the Leave lies for the current predicament. It's ridiculous to suggest that the Remain campaign before the Referendum is somehow at fault in any way for the current failure of the Brexit process.

I'd say the mess the UK is in is down to the way the Tory party has conducted itself since the vote. However, I do lay some of the blame for Remain losing on the lies from George Osbourne et al. His claims of 800,000 unemployed straight after the vote and households losing £4200 in the first year after the vote were proven to be lies. When his own Treasury dept and a Commons Select committee called him out for lying... Once he was proven to have lied those on the fence probably wondered why he needed to lie. Was he hiding how good Leave might be?

Rather than bad mouth Leave, which did get people's backs up, why didn't Remain put out a list of EU achievements?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Its not absolute nonsense. You may disagree but its a point of view and one you are of course free to counter. I wouldnt suggest your view is complete rubbish just because I disagree with it though.

IMO the current malaise is due to the country having a mainly leave voting public and mainly remain parliament. I can only reiterate that we didnt vote based on Boris and his bus.

Is it not about 30 something % of the country that actually voted to leave - so to say “ country is mainly leave vote public “ is not really correct is it

And as for the reason why people voted leave - surely you can’t state what other people’s reasons are - only state what yours were and any other that have stated their reasons. Already been seen that people did vote because of the message on that bus - so again you can’t state “we” - only “you”
👍

 

[bluewolf]

Its not absolute nonsense. You may disagree but its a point of view and one you are of course free to counter. I wouldnt suggest your view is complete rubbish just because I disagree with it though.

IMO the current malaise is due to the country having a mainly leave voting public and mainly remain parliament. I can only reiterate that we didnt vote based on Boris and his bus.

Sorry Bri, but IMO it's nonsense.
And you have absolutely no idea what the current state of mind is in the general public. None of us do. The polls suggest you're wrong but they are an average indicator at best.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'd say the mess the UK is in is down to the way the Tory party has conducted itself since the vote. However, I do lay some of the blame for Remain losing on the lies from George Osbourne et al. His claims of 800,000 unemployed straight after the vote and households losing £4200 in the first year after the vote were proven to be lies. When his own Treasury dept and a Commons Select committee called him out for lying... Once he was proven to have lied those on the fence probably wondered why he needed to lie. Was he hiding how good Leave might be?

Rather than bad mouth Leave, which did get people's backs up, why didn't Remain put out a list of EU achievements?

Cameron was suggesting Leaving would produce refugee camps in Kent and a third world war. Both sides tried it on and I suspect the lies turned off as many voters as they turned on.