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Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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adam6177 said:
This is the side of the argument that I dont get. We've been in the EU for 40 years or so and have made these deals along the way to the current day..... I'm interested in what our country will be like in the next 5-40 years, a bit of short term "pain" to me is acceptable for a better long term future.

Again I concede that it's all subjective and ifs and buts, but for me my vision is long term.
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Well as we are moving toward climate Armageddon and destruction of our way of life as we know it, going it alone makes little sense.
 
pauldj42 said:
Cameron was putting all the negatives forward when campaigning for remain, unless of course you think it was a double bluff.
The majority of the leave campaign was “taking back control” or posters.
Whether we wish to accept it or not “Leave” was never broken down as it never had a plan.
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You are correct that Cameron never formulated a plan for a 'Leave ' result as he never believed it would happen. That's not the fault of people who voted leave though as they would expect our politicians to have considered all options, it's what someone in business would do every time.

Cameron was indeed a part of the 'Project Fear' campaign and forecast all sorts of nasties that would happen the moment we had a leave vote but he did send a booklet to every household in the country saying the result of the referendum would be respected, there are also videos showing him pledging to honor the outcome.

This is a clip from the booklet

images
 
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SocketRocket said:
You are correct that Cameron never formulated a plan for a 'Leave ' result as he never believed it would happen. That's not the fault of people who voted leave though as they would expect our politicians to have considered all options, it's what someone in business would do every time.

Cameron was indeed a part of the 'Project Fear' campaign and forecast all sorts of nasties that would happen the moment we had a leave vote but he did send a booklet to every household in the country saying the result of the referendum would be respected, there are also videos showing him pledging to honor the outcome.
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All good, but people can get things wrong and change their minds . If we had another referendum remain would win 70/30
 
SocketRocket said:
You are correct that Cameron never formulated a plan for a 'Leave ' result as he never believed it would happen. That's not the fault of people who voted leave though as they would expect our politicians to have considered all options, it's what someone in business would do every time.

Cameron was indeed a part of the 'Project Fear' campaign and forecast all sorts of nasties that would happen the moment we had a leave vote but he did send a booklet to every household in the country saying the result of the referendum would be respected, there are also videos showing him pledging to honor the outcome.
Click to expand...
I know, I voted leave but still didn’t expect a no deal scenario, as above, even the leave campaign in their leaflet said we’ll have a deal.
 
robinthehood said:
All good, but people can get things wrong and change their minds . If we had another referendum remain would win 70/30
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What if the next one was 52/48 remain, can we have a third winner takes all referendum?
 
robinthehood said:
All good, but people can get things wrong and change their minds . If we had another referendum remain would win 70/30
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Maybe many who voted Remain would change to leave. I cant see that anyone could be certain on the result of another referendum. One thing is certain , it would deepen divisions in the country.
 
pauldj42 said:
So why are so many screaming for a no deal? We were never voting for that!
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Paul, I would have preferred to have been able to negotiate a deal as there are undoubted advantages in staying in, healthcare & the driving licence issue for two. There is also the argument that we should remain in and effect change from within. However we seem unable to change minds from within, despite there being politicians abroad who still value our input, so maybe the way forward is to take everything back then agree to give ground where it suits us; Merkel may then be forced to listen to her own politicians rather than Macron. The one big advantage of this is that it would appear to remove us from the financial liability when the apparently inevitable collapse comes about.
 
adam6177 said:
This is the side of the argument that I dont get. We've been in the EU for 40 years or so and have made these deals along the way to the current day..... I'm interested in what our country will be like in the next 5-40 years, a bit of short term "pain" to me is acceptable for a better long term future.

Again I concede that it's all subjective and ifs and buts, but for me my vision is long term.
Click to expand...

It's also highly likely that a No Deal would mean that the UK's Financial Services 'Passporting' would be lost which would be pretty devastating for that part of the economy - and here's a link that demonstrates how important the UK's Financial Services industry is, particularly to London! https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193
 
Blue in Munich said:
Paul, I would have preferred to have been able to negotiate a deal as there are undoubted advantages in staying in, healthcare & the driving licence issue for two. There is also the argument that we should remain in and effect change from within. However we seem unable to change minds from within, despite there being politicians abroad who still value our input, so maybe the way forward is to take everything back then agree to give ground where it suits us; Merkel may then be forced to listen to her own politicians rather than Macron. The one big advantage of this is that it would appear to remove us from the financial liability when the apparently inevitable collapse comes about.
Click to expand...

before this all kicked off effectively nothing got agreed in the EU unless it was signed off by us, France and Germany. Yes this is an old video and yes he is a professor studying the EU so some may well claim bias but from around 5.40 he explains how it used to work with regards to power in the EU.

 
Foxholer said:
It's also highly likely that a No Deal would mean that the UK's Financial Services 'Passporting' would be lost which would be pretty devastating for that part of the economy - and here's a link that demonstrates how important the UK's Financial Services industry is, particularly to London! https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193
Click to expand...

I work in that sector and I'm sorry to say it's largely being over dramatized. Our London office workers would become employees of our luxembourg or swiss offices and then simply work in a "branch" located in London. It's what all the companies are doing and although administratively intensive it's really a non issue.
 
Blue in Munich said:
Paul, I would have preferred to have been able to negotiate a deal as there are undoubted advantages in staying in, healthcare & the driving licence issue for two. There is also the argument that we should remain in and effect change from within. However we seem unable to change minds from within, despite there being politicians abroad who still value our input, so maybe the way forward is to take everything back then agree to give ground where it suits us; Merkel may then be forced to listen to her own politicians rather than Macron. The one big advantage of this is that it would appear to remove us from the financial liability when the apparently inevitable collapse comes about.
Click to expand...
That’s were I’ve moved to, initially I wanted to leave with a decent deal, some give, some take.
The deal on offer is a bad deal, our idiots in Parliament are scrambling about trying to move forward and the EU are offering nothing to help.
My only concern is how long the pain and at what cost to the poorest in our society.
 
pauldj42 said:
That’s were I’ve moved to, initially I wanted to leave with a decent deal, some give, some take.
The deal on offer is a bad deal, our idiots in Parliament are scrambling about trying to move forward and the EU are offering nothing to help.
My only concern is how long the pain and at what cost to the poorest in our society.
Click to expand...

Short term I share your concern Paul, long term I think the removal of the potential millstone round our neck offers us the best long term deal.
 
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