Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

Like you, what I thought Leave meant was never actually clarified, the only ones that tried to “explain” what leave meant were the likes of Cameron and that was dismissed as project fear.

I think it’s the use of the English language I have the problem with, ie “the death of democracy” “the will of the people being ignored” “a complete betrayal” etc.

I’m happy to go with a no deal and start again, but even in that scenario it would be naive to think we’ll get everything we want, there will be compromise in any agreement and to some even if we get 99% our own way they’ll still claim we’ve been betrayed.

I don't believe that was dismissed as 'Project Fear' It was the pledge the government were making to us prior to the referendum that whatever we decided would be carried out, no second referendums, no single market or customs union. I took this as us trying to negotiate a trade deal and security issues, to settle any outstanding obligations and then leave.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I do hope that it comes to a head very soon as we leave with no deal, I wonder if they're trying to grind us down so we'll accept any old agreement just to be done with it.

TMays tactic was always to wind the clock down so the choice is no deal or her deal. But I continue to be confused by those who deliberately want a No Deal as I can not see any sense in that whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I don't believe that was dismissed as 'Project Fear' It was the pledge the government were making to us prior to the referendum that whatever we decided would be carried out, no second referendums, no single market or customs union. I took this as us trying to negotiate a trade deal and security issues, to settle any outstanding obligations and then leave.

Cameron was putting all the negatives forward when campaigning for remain, unless of course you think it was a double bluff.
The majority of the leave campaign was “taking back control” or posters.
Whether we wish to accept it or not “Leave” was never broken down as it never had a plan.

 

[Tashyboy]

I see some speeches Thatcher gave in 1992ish have sprung up over recent days.... Have others seen these?

Honestly it's like she had a crystal ball and is describing the exact situation we're in..... I have never and will never vote Tory in my life time, but she really was speaking sense on this subject.

Strange you should say that Adam, me dad was on about Her the other day saying we would not be in this mess if she was about. IF memory serves me right, was it not Europe that cost her the PMs job, of at least one of the reasons.

 

[Tashyboy]

No betrayal, it would be giving the people what they voted for, though admittedly not what they were promised.

If it did not allow us to set our trade deals, it was a betrayal, out means out.

 

[Tashyboy]

Just out of interest, and I do not know why myself, but why is the prospect of leaving with no deal, then sorting out deals worldwide afterwards so bad?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Strange you should say that Adam, me dad was on about Her the other day saying we would not be in this mess if she was about. IF memory serves me right, was it not Europe that cost her the PMs job, of at least one of the reasons.

It was one of the reasons, together with the recession and the Poll Tax. She was very Eurosceptic and members of the cabinet were more Europhiles. I think it was the famous No, No, No speech about closer European integration that mostly sealed her fate. Most Tory leaders seem to get infected with clashes over Europe in their party, it's kind of the Tories Kryptonite. In the past it has caused splits in their party, now they have kindly extended that to the whole nation.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Just out of interest, and I do not know why myself, but why is the prospect of leaving with no deal, then sorting out deals worldwide afterwards so bad?

Because one could argue it is a massive amount of time, effort and resources needed which could be spent elsewhere on things like educations, the NHS, regional growth etc etc to essentially get what we already have now through the EU. Plus a great many businesses need to trade with the EU so having a withdrawal agreement with them is a good thing to have. Demonstrating we can not do that on top of the image of utter incompetence we are portraying does not really exude a bargaining positions of strength in any future deals with the EU.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Just out of interest, and I do not know why myself, but why is the prospect of leaving with no deal, then sorting out deals worldwide afterwards so bad?

Because it’s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

TMays tactic was always to wind the clock down so the choice is no deal or her deal. But I continue to be confused by those who deliberately want a No Deal as I can not see any sense in that whatsoever.

From my point of view it would be my preference as I'd prefer us to start from scratch with making new deals. I firmly believe we could put ourselves in a better position by either new deals with the existing countries we trade with or make new deals with new suppliers..... could you see our roads full of US made cars instead of french, Italian etc (purely as a one off example).

 

[ColchesterFC]

Because it’s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.

But equally we were told (promised) that we would be leaving the Customs Union and Single Market by the remain campaign.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Strange you should say that Adam, me dad was on about Her the other day saying we would not be in this mess if she was about. IF memory serves me right, was it not Europe that cost her the PMs job, of at least one of the reasons.

Rather than spam this thread with her videos, I'll PM you a couple - I'm a bit young to remember her properly (I was born in 1980) but going purely on the speeches she gave it was enough to make me take note.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But equally we were told (promised) that we would be leaving the Customs Union and Single Market by the remain campaign.

It’s irrelevant what the remain campaign said, they lost remember.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Rather than spam this thread with her videos, I'll PM you a couple - I'm a bit young to remember her properly (I was born in 1980) but going purely on the speeches she gave it was enough to make me take note.

Churchill made some decent speeches as well in his time,
Thatcher’s speeches were made in a different time in a different world, financial climate, etc, hindsight is a wonderful thing!
40 years since her speeches and only 40 years before them we were at war with Germany.

 

[ColchesterFC]

It’s irrelevant what the remain campaign said, they lost remember.

Ah yes, very good point. Maybe they need to get over it.

 

[robinthehood]

Because it’s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.

The easiest one in history apparently

 

[jp5]

Europe ends up costing every Tory PM their job eventually. Suspect there will be a few more to add to that list!

Essentially all boils down to our electoral system. If we had a more representative model there would be a majority of MPs for Brexit and they could sort out between themselves what it means. Unfortunately the bloke that ran the LeaveEU campaign also ran the campaign to scupper any chance of electoral reform... so here we are.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

From my point of view it would be my preference as I'd prefer us to start from scratch with making new deals. I firmly believe we could put ourselves in a better position by either new deals with the existing countries we trade with or make new deals with new suppliers..... could you see our roads full of US made cars instead of french, Italian etc (purely as a one off example).

You wouldn't even see the roads in America full of US made cars.

Build quality issues and a shrinking manufacturing base.

 

[Hacker Khan]

From my point of view it would be my preference as I'd prefer us to start from scratch with making new deals. I firmly believe we could put ourselves in a better position by either new deals with the existing countries we trade with or make new deals with new suppliers..... could you see our roads full of US made cars instead of french, Italian etc (purely as a one off example).

Not really as US cars are made for the US market so they are generally very big and unsuited to our road and parking network, relatively fuel inefficient, the quality is not perceived as being very good and if you are into the driving experience usually not that good to drive. Every time I go to the US and get a hire car they are fine for wallowing along the freeway at 75 mph on cruise control, but most of them would not be much cop in this country. And how much time and effort will it need to create all these new deals and is there not a better use of the that time?

 

[Deleted member 18121]

And how much time and effort will it need to create all these new deals and is there not a better use of the that time?

This is the side of the argument that I dont get. We've been in the EU for 40 years or so and have made these deals along the way to the current day..... I'm interested in what our country will be like in the next 5-40 years, a bit of short term "pain" to me is acceptable for a better long term future.

Again I concede that it's all subjective and ifs and buts, but for me my vision is long term.