Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you 😉

No im not. I'm highlighting them. You're ignoring them as it suits your viewpoint.
As for the comment about no one talking about the Irish border issue, sorry but that's laughable. The current predicament is entirely down to this. The ERG have done nothing but talk about the backstop. They've criticised it endlessly without ever suggesting an alternative. Why is that?

Again! The only issue being discussed relates to how goods flow between south and north, not the movement of people. Its nothing to do with my viewpoint, its the reality of the border concerns. Laugh away if it suits but what's the point in discussing it with that response.

 

[bluewolf]

Thank you 😉

Again! The only issue being discussed relates to how goods flow between south and north, not the movement of people. Its nothing to do with my viewpoint, its the reality of the border concerns. Laugh away if it suits but what's the point in discussing it with that response.

Trust me, no one is laughing. It's hard to when you're head is repeatedly banging against the brick wall...
I appear to have fallen straight back in to trying to discuss with multiple people so I'll merely say,"Let's see what happens shall we".
Still find it odd that such a simple solution appears to have evaded the thinking of everyone but a few guys on a golf forum. 😉

 

[Hobbit]

Trust me, no one is laughing. It's hard to when you're head is repeatedly banging against the brick wall...
I appear to have fallen straight back in to trying to discuss with multiple people so I'll merely say,"Let's see what happens shall we".
Still find it odd that such a simple solution appears to have evaded the thinking of everyone but a few guys on a golf forum. 😉

I think the EU, Ireland and the UK know there is a simple solution. The UK has mooted a simple solution and the EU and Ireland have said no. Bizarrely, the solution mooted has relatively little cost to governments compared to having check points, and those costs will, in the main, fall to businesses.

One of the issues said to be a block to a hard border is there is 320 miles of border to 'manage.' The border between Norway and Sweden is supposed to be the most technologically advanced border control system in the world, including many unmanned crossings and that is 750 miles long.

There are solutions out there already being used on EU borders. Why isn't a version of those, or May's "trusted trader" option being adopted? In the last 2 weeks, with a hard Brexit on the horizon, Leo Varadkar, the Irish PM, has said these options must be explored to avoid a hard border. He's left it very late to get onboard with the idea.

Until the EU come up with why options used elsewhere in the EU won't work in Ireland I'll continue to believe they are just being downright awkward for the sake of making life difficult for the UK. They are using the Irish border issue as leverage to keep control of the UK. In effect, using the delicate political issues in Northern Ireland as a weapon against the UK.

 

[bluewolf]

I think the EU, Ireland and the UK know there is a simple solution. The UK has mooted a simple solution and the EU and Ireland have said no. Bizarrely, the solution mooted has relatively little cost to governments compared to having check points, and those costs will, in the main, fall to businesses.

One of the issues said to be a block to a hard border is there is 320 miles of border to 'manage.' The border between Norway and Sweden is supposed to be the most technologically advanced border control system in the world, including many unmanned crossings and that is 750 miles long.

There are solutions out there already being used on EU borders. Why isn't a version of those, or May's "trusted trader" option being adopted? In the last 2 weeks, with a hard Brexit on the horizon, Leo Varadkar, the Irish PM, has said these options must be explored to avoid a hard border. He's left it very late to get onboard with the idea.

Until the EU come up with why options used elsewhere in the EU won't work in Ireland I'll continue to believe they are just being downright awkward for the sake of making life difficult for the UK. They are using the Irish border issue as leverage to keep control of the UK. In effect, using the delicate political issues in Northern Ireland as a weapon against the UK.

I respectfully suggest that you're wrong. The "simple" solutions have all been found wanting due to the highly complex nature of the Irish Border and the GFA.
The ERG's report on this very issue is taken apart in this article.... https://ukandeu.ac.uk/all-simple-so...border-fail-to-acknowledge-complex-realities/

The reason that no solution is being suggested is that none currently exist. People keep looking for the bogeyman in the room when the answer is frequently much more simple.

Also, genuine question, now that there is an extension to April 12th at least. Is it necessary for us to follow all EU laws up to this date? Or can we ignore new legislation that might only be coming into force in the next 7 days?

Ps. I probably won't be posting for the rest of today as I have an incredibly busy morning at work, followed by 18 holes at the new club, then running club tonight. Please don't think I'm ignoring anyone 👍😂

 

[Hacker Khan]

Very good! Don't know how to reply to that. You seem to have won, but, it does highlight another problem. Government. Maybe we should form our own army (Long Live The Queen) and have a civil war and remove the sitting Parliamnent and put Liz in charge. I'll bet she'd love that.

I haven't won as I think we are all losing at the moment. However you have hit the nail on the head in that the problem is mostly not the EU but the politicians we elect in this country. The EU is a convenient scapegoat.

 

[Hobbit]

I respectfully suggest that you're wrong. The "simple" solutions have all been found wanting due to the highly complex nature of the Irish Border and the GFA.
The ERG's report on this very issue is taken apart in this article.... https://ukandeu.ac.uk/all-simple-so...border-fail-to-acknowledge-complex-realities/

The reason that no solution is being suggested is that none currently exist. People keep looking for the bogeyman in the room when the answer is frequently much more simple.

Also, genuine question, now that there is an extension to April 12th at least. Is it necessary for us to follow all EU laws up to this date? Or can we ignore new legislation that might only be coming into force in the next 7 days?

Ps. I probably won't be posting for the rest of today as I have an incredibly busy morning at work, followed by 18 holes at the new club, then running club tonight. Please don't think I'm ignoring anyone 👍😂

I worked in our Stockholm office for a while. I had engineers crossing the border with Norway on an almost daily basis. In the boot of their cars were service parts. It wasn't a bonded boot. All the issues surrounding VAT/taxation and customs were done by the IT system in the office. The systems already exist. Small businesses operate across that border every single day. And the big issue made of smuggling that would occur; its going on across EU 'v' non-EU borders now. Why is that raised as a reason?

Estonia currently ranks first in the world for e-taxation, including small businesses, across its border with Russia. The solutions are already out there and being used successfully.

The boogeyman is the EU.

To your question about have the EU laws changed in respect of the date. It bloody well feels like it here at present. The local police are being a right pain over driving licences, giving on the spot fines for anyone that is a resident but hasn't changed their licence to a Spanish one or are not carrying an International Driving Permit. Thankfully, fines are being reimbursed but its not fun standing for 20 mins telling the Guardia he's wrong, especially when he has a gun. Seriously though, the laws won't change till the UK is officially out, if it happens. Why change them today only to change them back in 6 months time when the UK hasn't Brexited.

Enjoy the golf!

 

[bobmac]

Happy Brexit day.
Strange, but I don't feel any different.
What???
What do you mean we haven't left yet?

 

[spongebob59]

Pretty damming

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I'm with Hobbit on the freight issue. We export regularly and when doing so out of the EU we give documents to the freight company in advance. Most customs clearing occurs before the goods ever land so that when they do arrive they are simply processed and waved through. I've spoken to EU road freight companies and they have no doubt this is how the system will work in Europe post Brexit. The idea that every vehicle will be stopped and checked at the border is nonsense, there would be huge tailbacks. The same applies with Ireland.

Goods will be cleared and processed in advance, traffic will flow freely. Customs will get wind of dubious practices and do random or targeted checks, as has always happened. Some dodgy cigs and whiskey will get across but what's new there? There is a mistaken perception that businesses are constantly trying to fiddle the system or customs. It is not in the interests of legitimate business or freight companies to trick Customs & Excise. Those that do are in a small minority, very small, and they will not change whether the border is frictionless or not.

In terms of people, if someone wants to take the circuitous route of mainland Europe, Ireland, UK then at some point when leaving N. Ireland to enter Britain they will have to show ID, traditionally a passport. You have to do that now. You don't just walk on to a plane without ID.

This is resolvable if the EU want it to be.

 

[Mudball]

So big day today.. it’s end of Q1 and sales figures are down.. targets not met ... I am assuming that is all fine because tomorrow the sun is not going to come up..

.. if it does, then Hacker and I are going on holiday with our blue passports .. we always said Maybot will get her deal thru - simply because all the lemmings are clueless on who votes for what and when and who for ..

 

[spongebob59]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1111539665700573184

 

[Hacker Khan]

So big day today.. it’s end of Q1 and sales figures are down.. targets not met ... I am assuming that is all fine because tomorrow the sun is not going to come up..

.. if it does, then Hacker and I are going on holiday with our blue passports .. we always said Maybot will get her deal thru - simply because all the lemmings are clueless on who votes for what and when and who for ..

Yup, there will be enough labour MPs who vote for it, the DUP may even capitulate in the end.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Pretty damming

Sums up exactly were the responsibility for this mess lies.

 

[robinthehood]

Please prove me wrong, I know you can't though as you are ignorant of the facts.

Prove what wrong ? It's well documented there was a lot of misinformation etc during the brexit campaign .

 

[bluewolf]

As a slightly tongue in cheek aside.. I was thinking earlier about how opinions are formed and then enforced.

Personally, my opinions start as an instinct, an instinct based on many years of experience. I then look around to see exactly who agrees with this opinion. If I like and respect those who agree with my hard pondered opinion, then I become emboldened by its validity. I become more sure that I'm right and that those who disagree must be seeing something that I'm not. I then question my opinion. I pressure test it constantly, tweaking it as I go along.. All of this time, I'm still comparing it to the opinions of others I respect and trust..

Based on all this, I'm struggling to see how anyone that holds the same opinion as that Intelligence vacuum, Marc Francois can possibly go to bed at night without questioning everything that they've fought hard to formulate into one coherent opinion.. I'm bewildered.

 

[drdel]

What has that first paragraph got to do with the current discussion? I've been to most of those places. Try getting out of the airport without a passport.
Will there need to be a hard border between Ireland and N Ireland?

You obviously don't do sarcasm....

 

[drdel]

I'm with Hobbit on the freight issue. We export regularly and when doing so out of the EU we give documents to the freight company in advance. Most customs clearing occurs before the goods ever land so that when they do arrive they are simply processed and waved through. I've spoken to EU road freight companies and they have no doubt this is how the system will work in Europe post Brexit. The idea that every vehicle will be stopped and checked at the border is nonsense, there would be huge tailbacks. The same applies with Ireland.

Goods will be cleared and processed in advance, traffic will flow freely. Customs will get wind of dubious practices and do random or targeted checks, as has always happened. Some dodgy cigs and whiskey will get across but what's new there? There is a mistaken perception that businesses are constantly trying to fiddle the system or customs. It is not in the interests of legitimate business or freight companies to trick Customs & Excise. Those that do are in a small minority, very small, and they will not change whether the border is frictionless or not.

In terms of people, if someone wants to take the circuitous route of mainland Europe, Ireland, UK then at some point when leaving N. Ireland to enter Britain they will have to show ID, traditionally a passport. You have to do that now. You don't just walk on to a plane without ID.

This is resolvable if the EU want it to be.

The CEO of Next agrees with you. As an exporter and importer he suggested its just adapting to changed admin if the UK exits the EU which he supports

 

[Foxholer]

You are correct. My point however was solely where most of our current trade is carried out.

Which is 'none of the above'! So does that mean we don't trade?!

We may not 'do most of our trade' with the EU. But we 'do trade most' with the EU!

Isn't language great!

Oh and according to numbers I've seen (at least for 2017)...We DO (or DID) do most of our trade with the EU!! Total Trade was 1083Bn of which 615Bn was with the EU!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The CEO of Next agrees with you. As an exporter and importer he suggested its just adapting to changed admin if the UK exits the EU which he supports

Let’s give the CEO of Next his full title in the interests of fairness and balance.
Simon Adam Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Aspley Guise is a British businessman and currently chief executive of the clothing retailer Next plc and a Conservative life peer. He is the son of former Next chairman David Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Sunningdale, also a Conservative life peer.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Absolutely disgraceful behaviour directed towards Johanna Cherry both outside and inside the HofCom.
Mobs both inside and outside.