Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[bluewolf]

Surely that's their decision. Do I think its OK that you want us to remain, of course I do as that's your right to choose as you wish. I have my preferences that i would hope you would respect and although we can debate our reasons for our decisions we shouldnt suggest we have no right to make them.

I don't disagree, but all I've heard for weeks is that requesting a 2nd referendum because people may have changed their minds is undemocratic. There have been threats of violence against people.
Now, arch brexiteers start changing their minds (for whatever reasons) and it becomes totally understandable and just part of the process. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the hypocrisy of the situation.

 

[Fade and Die]

Seriously ?! You really think it’s hypocritical for people to point out that Boris Johnson and Co are only backing a bad deal to further their own career - can you explain what has changed since Johnson’s statement yesterday.

Many people have changed their minds over a two year period for acceptable reasons whether that’s going from leave to remain or vice versa

But this is two snakes flipping at the drop of a hat. Even though you did say “one could suggest they are doing it for the best for the country “ 😂😂

I suspect 99.99 % can just see it for what it is

Then there is you who is using it to score points.

Not disagreeing with your point re Johnson et al being self serving chancers but the bit I’ve highlighted, is this just another one of your made up “facts” or do you have proof? Because I honestly don’t know any leaver that has changed their mind. And I know a LOT. If anything they are even more determined to leave.

 

[chrisd]

In your opinion, I voted leave and put my trust in the Government, that Government is the Tory party backed by the DUP, Labour and everyone other party has had absolutely no say in the deal, they like many others think she’s negotiated a bad deal.
The alternatives Labour and others have put forward have been rejected by TM, what options are left?
How would you expect any Party in opposition to behave if they have constantly been ignored.
Her plan is bad, why are we even discussing Labour.
Look at tonight, TM promises to resign, Tories back her deal, pay the DUP to back the deal, all the Labour and other Parties behaviour becomes irrelevant.
The deflection on to Labour and other parties is no more than smoke and mirrors to hide the rubbish TM has negotiated.

That's nonsense Paul, the Labour Party fought a General election based on delivering the referendum result and even then they gave no detail as to their strategy. She asked for cross party talks, admittedly late on, but Corbyn didn't take part honestly. I'm not saying that the current position is Labour's fault but that they are using the issue simply to further their political aims

 

[SocketRocket]

Seriously ?! You really think it’s hypocritical for people to point out that Boris Johnson and Co are only backing a bad deal to further their own career - can you explain what has changed since Johnson’s statement yesterday.

Many people have changed their minds over a two year period for acceptable reasons whether that’s going from leave to remain or vice versa

But this is two snakes flipping at the drop of a hat. Even though you did say “one could suggest they are doing it for the best for the country “ 😂😂

I suspect 99.99 % can just see it for what it is

Then there is you who is using it to score points.

Once again you are either posting without trying to understand the point made or you are purposely trying to point score.
I am not standing their corner, they are quite capable to do that themselves. I am suggesting people like yourself are hypocritical and lacking balance. You extol the fact that democracy allows people to change their minds then pour scorn on someone doing it. I believe their motive is to prevent Brexit being stopped by taking what they see as the only way out. Regarding their morals, I am not interested either way, other than lacking confidence in the whole bunch of them.

You are entitled to your rather strong views on them, its nothing to me.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

That's nonsense Paul, the Labour Party fought a General election based on delivering the referendum result and even then they gave no detail as to their strategy. She asked for cross party talks, admittedly late on, but Corbyn didn't take part honestly. I'm not saying that the current position is Labour's fault but that they are using the issue simply to further their political aims

And they’ve put forward a plan to carryout Brexit, again it would also be bad imo, just like TM’s.
What do you honestly expect Labour to do?
They could promise the moon and stars and they’d still not actually have to carry it out, every party in opposition behaves this way.

 

[bluewolf]

Not disagreeing with your point re Johnson et al being self serving chancers but the bit I’ve highlighted, is this just another one of your made up “facts” or do you have proof? Because I honestly don’t know any leaver that has changed their mind. And I know a LOT. If anything they are even more determined to leave.

Maybe they're just frightened to tell you... 😉

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Let's go for a hard brexit and be done with it.

 

[spongebob59]

DUP still say no.
That general election she called

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not disagreeing with your point re Johnson et al being self serving chancers but the bit I’ve highlighted, is this just another one of your made up “facts” or do you have proof? Because I honestly don’t know any leaver that has changed their mind. And I know a LOT. If anything they are even more determined to leave.

I know people who have changed their minds - both ways , there have been plenty of articles posted on various outlets of people who have changed their minds both ways and for varying reasons. So yep I believe people have changed their minds over the whole process. If there was another referendum then I believe Remain would win this time but just an opinion

Once again you are either posting without trying to understand the point made or you are purposely trying to point score.
I am not standing their corner, they are quite capable to do that themselves. I am suggesting people like yourself are hypocritical and lacking balance. You extol the fact that democracy allows people to change their minds then pour scorn on someone doing it. I believe their motive is to prevent Brexit being stopped by taking what they see as the only way out. Regarding their morals, I am not interested either way, other than lacking confidence in the whole bunch of them.

You are entitled to your rather strong views on them, its nothing to me.

You really believe that ? So why only change their mind when TM says she will quit if they vote for it and it goes through ? Nothing at all to do with their own ambitions of power then ?

Johnson believed so much in leaving the EU being the best for the country he hid away

The deal is supposed to be worse than actually being in the EU - so why vote for it then if it doesn’t achieve what they want - everyone apart from you knows why , because they see it as a chance to grab the hot seat

 

[chrisd]

And they’ve put forward a plan to carryout Brexit, again it would also be bad imo, just like TM’s.
What do you honestly expect Labour to do?
They could promise the moon and stars and they’d still not actually have to carry it out, every party in opposition behaves this way.

I would have hoped that they would help get us out in a way that delivered the country's wish and, as a result, hold the high ground but typical Corbyn - well, you know the rest 😣

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Multi millionaire Grees Mogg has already made millions on the back of Brexit, he's standing to lose more millions if Brexit doesn't happen, thats why he's suddenly changed his mind. All about himself.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I would have hoped that they would help get us out in a way that delivered the country's wish and, as a result, hold the high ground but typical Corbyn - well, you know the rest 😣

Help a bad deal? Seriously?

You’ve already admitted she left it late to involve other parties, yet you expect Labour to behave and do the right thing.

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't disagree, but all I've heard for weeks is that requesting a 2nd referendum because people may have changed their minds is undemocratic. There have been threats of violence against people.
Now, arch brexiteers start changing their minds (for whatever reasons) and it becomes totally understandable and just part of the process. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the hypocrisy of the situation.

People can change their minds but we have to use context if we wish to consider its relevance.

Regarding the referendum, its over now and someone changing their mind after is not a reason to change the outcome, referenda and general elections are a snap shot in time to reflect opinion, i cant think of a better way. People changing their minds before voting is another matter and one i assume we would both accept.

My criticism is where people are saying this is OK in some situations but not in others. I have suggested why some politicians may have done this recently and what their motives may be although I am not in their confidence so could only make a guess or take their word for it. Thats not the point i am making though.

Regarding threats of violence or to life I have not supported this, have I? So not sure where you're coming from with that.

 

[SocketRocket]

I know people who have changed their minds - both ways , there have been plenty of articles posted on various outlets of people who have changed their minds both ways and for varying reasons. So yep I believe people have changed their minds over the whole process. If there was another referendum then I believe Remain would win this time but just an opinion



You really believe that ? So why only change their mind when TM says she will quit if they vote for it and it goes through ? Nothing at all to do with their own ambitions of power then ?

Johnson believed so much in leaving the EU being the best for the country he hid away

The deal is supposed to be worse than actually being in the EU - so why vote for it then if it doesn’t achieve what they want - everyone apart from you knows why , because they see it as a chance to grab the hot seat

You are obviously a little over excited about this and its blurring your comprehension. No point in trying to explain further as you are looking for an argument but unable to keep to the subject matter. I am not Johnsons keeper and dont wish to get entangled in a pointless squabble over his past history.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are obviously a little over excited about this and its blurring your comprehension. No point in trying to explain further as you are looking for an argument but unable to keep to the subject matter. I am not Johnsons keeper and dont wish to get entangled in a pointless squabble over his past history.

Um the subject matter was from the post that I initially made about Johnson being a hypocrite and being only interested in his own political gain - you responded going on about him changing his mind for the good of the country 😂😂😂 ( sorry that’s always going to be laughable that his does something other than what’s good for him ) yet everyone can see why he has changed his mind. It was you that had the issue yet now want to back out - you tried to score points against remainers ( your standard method ) and it seemed to have failed horribly.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Wasn't the whole point of the indicative vote supposed to be to show want MPs wanted? It seems from the result all we've found out is more things that they don't want.

No Deal - Not supported
For: 160
Against: 400

Common Market 2.0 - Not supported
For: 188
Against: 283

EFTA and EEA - Not supported
For: 65
Against: 377

Customs union - Not supported
For: 264
Against: 272

Labour’s alternative plan (K) – Not supported
For: 237
Against: 307

Revocation to avoid no deal (L) – Not supported
For: 184
Against: 293

Confirmatory public vote (M) – Not supported
For: 268
Against: 295

Contingent preferential arrangements (O) – Not supported
For: 139
Against: 422

 

[bluewolf]

People can change their minds but we have to use context if we wish to consider its relevance.

Regarding the referendum, its over now and someone changing their mind after is not a reason to change the outcome, referenda and general elections are a snap shot in time to reflect opinion, i cant think of a better way. People changing their minds before voting is another matter and one i assume we would both accept.

My criticism is where people are saying this is OK in some situations but not in others. I have suggested why some politicians may have done this recently and what their motives may be although I am not in their confidence so could only make a guess or take their word for it. Thats not the point i am making though.

Regarding threats of violence or to life I have not supported this, have I? So not sure where you're coming from with that.

But they're changing their minds after voting against it. Twice. Why do they get the opportunity to do that? Is it because they have more information now? Have they realised that they can't get the Utopia they promised.
Sound familiar?

 

[bluewolf]

Wasn't the whole point of the indicative vote supposed to be to show want MPs wanted? It seems from the result all we've found out is more things that they don't want.

No Deal - Not supported
For: 160
Against: 400

Common Market 2.0 - Not supported
For: 188
Against: 283

EFTA and EEA - Not supported
For: 65
Against: 377

Customs union - Not supported
For: 264
Against: 272

Labour’s alternative plan (K) – Not supported
For: 237
Against: 307

Revocation to avoid no deal (L) – Not supported
For: 184
Against: 293

Confirmatory public vote (M) – Not supported
For: 268
Against: 295

Contingent preferential arrangements (O) – Not supported
For: 139
Against: 422

It was always going to be the way. Did anyone expect anything else?

 

[ColchesterFC]

But they're changing their minds after voting against it. Twice. Why do they get the opportunity to do that? Is it because they have more information now? Have they realised that they can't get the Utopia they promised.
Sound familiar?

It's far worse than simply voting against it twice. Boris and Davis felt that it was such a bad deal that they both resigned over it. Now they think it's good enough to be able to back it.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Wasn't the whole point of the indicative vote supposed to be to show want MPs wanted? It seems from the result all we've found out is more things that they don't want.

No Deal - Not supported
For: 160
Against: 400

Common Market 2.0 - Not supported
For: 188
Against: 283

EFTA and EEA - Not supported
For: 65
Against: 377

Customs union - Not supported
For: 264
Against: 272

Labour’s alternative plan (K) – Not supported
For: 237
Against: 307

Revocation to avoid no deal (L) – Not supported
For: 184
Against: 293

Confirmatory public vote (M) – Not supported
For: 268
Against: 295

Contingent preferential arrangements (O) – Not supported
For: 139
Against: 422

Unsurprising.