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Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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GB72 said:
So by that reckoning, if the shoe was on the other foot and legislation were introduced to federalise europe, you would not be asking f9r a referendum to ensure that remained the will of the people.
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There was legislation to federalise the EU (not europe) and John Major accepted it without a referendum.
 
pauldj42 said:
...your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless....
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And, imo, he's correct!
pauldj42 said:
...
Isn’t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
....
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In the case of a Referendum - which was subsequently deemed 'binding' No! Part 1 is correct. But Part 2 needs to have 'to impliment our decision' added!
pauldj42 said:
...
We can’t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.
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But there is an alternative - No Deal! And that's entirely why we elect Representatives - to implement the option(s) in their manifestos - and anything else that may arise after appropriate 'polling' if necessary - because that's their area of 'expertise'.
We are quite ebtitled to be upset when they make a hash of it, but that's how (UK) democracy works!
 
pauldj42 said:
No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isn’t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We can’t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.
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In theory, you're right. However, Parliament gave the issue to the electorate. But even then they had the opportunity to take back control but decided to invoke Article 50. In both cases Parliament voted massively in favour. Now that reality is hitting home they don't know whether to stick, twist or go and sit on the bog. What a dire bunch of worthless troughing toads the majority of them are.
 
GB72 said:
So by that reckoning, if the shoe was on the other foot and legislation were introduced to federalise europe, you would not be asking f9r a referendum to ensure that remained the will of the people.
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Ifs, buts and maybe’s, we are were we are and we’ll have to live with the consequences, I just don’t see why Parliament should suddenly accept a bad deal under the excuse of it being the will of the people.
 
Foxholer said:
And, imo, he's correct!

In the case of a Referendum - which was subsequently deemed 'binding' No! Part 1 is correct. But Part 2 needs to have 'to impliment our decision' added!

But there is an alternative - No Deal! And that's entirely why we elect Representatives - to implement the option(s) in their manifestos - and anything else that may arise after appropriate 'polling' if necessary - because that's their area of 'expertise'.
We are quite ebtitled to be upset when they make a hash of it, but that's how (UK) democracy works!
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And at the next vote, for whatever that will be, WE get the chance to have our voices heard again, but as has already been expressed on here by plenty, they’ll vote for the same buffoon’s because of a colour of rosette.
 
Hobbit said:
In theory, you're right. However, Parliament gave the issue to the electorate. But even then they had the opportunity to take back control but decided to invoke Article 50. In both cases Parliament voted massively in favour. Now that reality is hitting home they don't know whether to stick, twist or go and sit on the bog. What a dire bunch of worthless troughing toads the majority of them are.
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And I do believe we will leave eventually, I still don’t expect to remain, the 650 has only become involved after a few made a deal and regardless of which side of the house they sit, it is far too important to expect the rest to lay down and accept just any deal.
 
Old Skier said:
I voted to leave, I didn't vote for a deal. If our politicians come up with a deal that could pass through Parliament I would accept it good or bad because that's their job. They haven't been able to agree the deal that has been offered by the EU which, in my simplistic way, suggest, to complete the Democratic will of the people, we have to leave with no deal and then negotiate as a non EU country.

Many interim agreements have been agreed regardless of us leaving with or without a deal. Never make the headlines and rarely highlighted in Parliament.

So this is the reasoning I have come to about the worth of our votes as everything is n place for the politicians to carry out the result of the referendum yet they are now openly talking about us staying in the EU.
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I’m more than happy with no deal and start from fresh, what we are getting forced in to is blackmail by TM.
3 months is not enough time for a decent deal to be agreed.
 
Foxholer said:
Maybe, but that wasn't what I was referring to! Did you actually check it out? I'm inclinrd to doubt that you did!
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Yes, but who are they to decide what is in the national interest, they and Parliament have failed to make a decision on that, the only thing they are in agreement on is that the deal on the table isn't in the national interest.
 
I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit. If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so. All this talk of we never understood what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus, there was no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win. If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it. What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.
 
Old Skier said:
Yes, but who are they to decide what is in the national interest, they and Parliament have failed to make a decision on that, the only thing they are in agreement on is that the deal on the table isn't in the national interest.
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That's entirely up to them! Whether you, or I, agree with it is a completely different matter!
 
SocketRocket said:
.....
I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic....
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Like it or lump it, it's entirely because of our democracy that this is happening! Your 'banana republic' comment is so far out of order it's laughable!
 
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SocketRocket said:
I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit. If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so. All this talk of we never understood what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus, there was no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win. If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it. What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.
Click to expand...
I genuinely find your point of view completely blinkered, none of us and I mean none of us actually knew what our vote meant, did it mean a deal at any cost or a good deal or no deal or complete stop and start again.
What I believe it shows is the whole leave process was flawed and WE should of got our own house in order before we started the negotiations and before we evoked Art 50.
Giving the Country 3 months out of a 2 year process is ridiculous.
As for the old “if it had gone the other way, we’d of just accepted it” rubbish, no WE wouldn’t, campaigns to get us out or a 2nd Ref would of been getting asked for, 48% of the population would not of been happy.
Dec/Jan/Feb the focus was very much on TM and her handling of this, as we’ve got close to the date and the clear visible signs she’s not getting her deal through every man and his dog has been blamed, just rewatch her speech from last week to see that!
 
SocketRocket said:
I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit. If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so. All this talk of we never understood what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus, there was no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win. If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it. What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.
Click to expand...

A few fair points but a few I'd like to dispute. Not everyone who wants to remain wants a second referendum. I for one am ambivalent on it. I certainly do not want a no deal and if that is the only choice then I'd prefer a 2nd referendum instead. But a negotiated deal is the fairest outcome to me. To me, and I think many others, it is just thinking happens if we are incapable of getting a negotiated deal.

Also it is not just remainers who have meant May is on a hiding to nothing with the negotiations, better to look internally in the Tory party for that. And as for the long list of things like 'we will be worse off, there was no plan' are in my opinion very valid points which I'd argue few could dispute ,and are not just cover stories. They are issues that a lot of people are very concerned about and you can not expect people, or indeed MPs, to just suddenly not worry about them. And finally if the vote had gone the other way then I'm very sure that it would not be the last of it from within the Tory party, UKIP and various others.
 
SocketRocket said:
I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit. If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so. All this talk of we never understood what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus, there was no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win. If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it. What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.
Click to expand...

I am shocked you believe anyone actually won during that vote

All it has done it make a country completely angry and made our parliament system a complete laughing stock ..
 
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