Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted Member 1156]

There are structural global changes in the world economy as re-alignment takes place around energy, raw materials and environmental pressures. China, India, South America and Africa are changing fast and will open new markets. The EU project is outdated having developed from a political idea after WW2 because of the need to keep Germany and France locked together and then help the German steel industry. It is now just a restrictive trading bloc which simply takes money from the wealth creating members and gives it to the uncompetitive sectors/members (e.g French agriculture etc). In recent years they have kept demand alive by giving away money (QE) but now the receivers (France, Italy, Greece, Spain et al) are in so much debt and uncompetitive they can't possible earn/sell enough to pay the interest let alone pay any capital it back.

The EU market is shrinking the UK needs to break out, noises in German suggest they can't afford the EU cost.

Remaining would be the most stupid and shortsighted thing the UK could possible do. The UK must leave, any short term 'pain' (which I don't accept will be major) will be worth it otherwise the UK will be soaked with a share of EU debt and become poorer and evermore growth restrained.

I wish I could 'Like' this post multiple times, well said Sir!

 

[Hacker Khan]

This is very sweary but very good. And apologies if the title offends.

 

[Mudball]

A good distraction from all the fight.. Gina Miller (common enemy??) has a go at this. Makes funny reading,
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-alternative-speech-brexit-eu-delay-a8834221.html

 

[Hobbit]

This is very sweary but very good. And apologies if the title offends.

Very good? 2:52 into it and I gave up. Maybe I expected something better, something a little more sophisticated. As a social comment it didn't reveal anything we don't already know, and as humour it was just meh.

How about a bit of Frankie Boyle on Brexit.


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[Deleted member 18121]

If the news is true about MPs voting on 6/7 options next week and they do anything but honour the result of the referendum I will never vote again, there will be no true democracy in this country.

I am so ashamed of the people chosen to represent us.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

If the news is true about MPs voting on 6/7 options next week and they do anything but honour the result of the referendum I will never vote again, there will be no true democracy in this country.

I am so ashamed of the people chosen to represent us.

I’ll respect them more for having a spine to stand up and say we have decided to stay because we believe it’s best for the country

They are elected to do what’s BEST for Britain not what’s popular

 

[SocketRocket]

A few fair points but a few I'd like to dispute. Not everyone who wants to remain wants a second referendum. I for one am ambivalent on it. I certainly do not want a no deal and if that is the only choice then I'd prefer a 2nd referendum instead. But a negotiated deal is the fairest outcome to me. To me, and I think many others, it is just thinking happens if we are incapable of getting a negotiated deal.

Also it is not just remainers who have meant May is on a hiding to nothing with the negotiations, better to look internally in the Tory party for that. And as for the long list of things like 'we will be worse off, there was no plan' are in my opinion very valid points which I'd argue few could dispute ,and are not just cover stories. They are issues that a lot of people are very concerned about and you can not expect people, or indeed MPs, to just suddenly not worry about them. And finally if the vote had gone the other way then I'm very sure that it would not be the last of it from within the Tory party, UKIP and various others.

Regarding your first point, I did say that I respected people who voted leave but accepted the result, I never made a connection between that and a second referendum.

In respect to your other point, i accept your view but still stand by my comment that whatever deal she came back with other than remain it would be rejected by remainers and that of course also means ones in the tory party.

 

[Hobbit]

I’ll respect them more for having a spine to stand up and say we have decided to stay because we believe it’s best for the country

They are elected to do what’s BEST for Britain not what’s popular

I kinda agree with that but would also ask the question about the subjective choice that Brexit is. What is best, and what is a political choice?

I voted Remain, and would do so again but I respect the choice people made from a political perspective. Many have acknowledged there'll be bumps in the road, and it won't go smoothly in the early days.

Its almost like saying voting Tory/Labour etc is wrong. No it isn't, its a political choice. Wrong in someone's eyes but not wrong in others.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

I kinda agree with that but would also ask the question about the subjective choice that Brexit is. What is best, and what is a political choice?

I voted Remain, and would do so again but I respect the choice people made from a political perspective. Many have acknowledged there'll be bumps in the road, and it won't go smoothly in the early days.

Its almost like saying voting Tory/Labour etc is wrong. No it isn't, its a political choice. Wrong in someone's eyes but not wrong in others.

The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision

MPs have access to information that we don’t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer

 

[Hobbit]

The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision

MPs have access to information that we don’t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer

So there should never be General Elections then?

 

[SocketRocket]

I’ll respect them more for having a spine to stand up and say we have decided to stay because we believe it’s best for the country

They are elected to do what’s BEST for Britain not what’s popular

Not when they abdicate that responsibility and ask the people to decide for them. If there was a second referendum and the result was a narrow majority for remain would current remainers be happy if the result was ignored.

 

[SocketRocket]

The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision

MPs have access to information that we don’t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer

Thats a terrible post, absolutely wrong.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Thats a terrible post, absolutely wrong.

Because you don’t agree with it. Sorry but it should never have gone To a vote

None of us know enough to have a proper vote on the situation

No matter how much hot air you produce doesn’t make you right 👌

 

[Deleted member 21784]

So there should never be General Elections then?

No. That’s different because we need to elect MPs to make the decisions.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Because you don’t agree with it. Sorry but it should never have gone To a vote

None of us know enough to have a proper vote on the situation

No matter how much hot air you produce doesn’t make you right 👌

Totally with SR on this one, what makes you think all Politicians are more intelligent than you or I or have a better understanding of current affairs?

 

[SocketRocket]

No. That’s different because we need to elect MPs to make the decisions.

But if ,as you suggest, we dont have enough knowledge to understand politics then surely you cannot think we should be trusted to make the choice. Maybe we should allow the civil service to pick them.

 

[ColchesterFC]

The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision

MPs have access to information that we don’t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer

The problem with that theory is that even with all the information you suggest they have access to there are still widely differing views on what we should do from those advocating No Deal to those saying revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU and everything in between. So if they are all getting this extra information then either the info isn't clear as to what's best or a large majority of them are deliberately ignoring it for their own political aims and therefore can't be trusted to make the decision in the best interests of the country.

 

[Hobbit]

No. That’s different because we need to elect MPs to make the decisions.

Yes we do, and those politicians that you say know best made the decision to give the referendum to the electorate. So, using your logic, they knew the best way to make the right decision was to ask the electorate.


And by the way, if you think politicians have a broad breadth of knowledge on every single thing that comes up in Parliament you're very sadly misguided. And if you think many of the ministers in charge of this fiasco are bright... seriously, many of them would make good salesmen and saleswomen but they lack the intellect you think they have.

 

[robinthehood]

The problem with that theory is that even with all the information you suggest they have access to there are still widely differing views on what we should do from those advocating No Deal to those saying revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU and everything in between. So if they are all getting this extra information then either the info isn't clear as to what's best or a large majority of them are deliberately ignoring it for their own political aims and therefore can't be trusted to make the decision in the best interests of the country.

thats why they have large departments to do the leg work....

 

[Hobbit]

thats why they have large departments to do the leg work....

Does that mean if a senior lecturer at a university instructed you how to do brain surgery you could do it? Having the info and knowing what to do with it are two very different things.