Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Foxholer]

Should have been done ages ago. Why try and negotiate a deal when you do jot know what parliament will agree to. If we had a unified stance on day one of the negotiations things could be so different.

While I agree in principle, this could well result in something I abhor - A referendum being repeated - with no change to the 'deal' on offer/question being asked - until 'the right result' is obtained!

 

[Old Skier]

Surely it’s our votes that have put them in that position?

Surely our vote was to tell them what we wanted them to do which they have never, as a majority wanted to carry out.

 

[GB72]

While I agree in principle, this could well result in something I abhor - A referendum being repeated - with no change to the 'deal' on offer/question being asked - until 'the right result' is obtained!

I am more leaning towards putting the deals to a referendum, no option to remain, to break the deadlock

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Surely our vote was to tell them what we wanted them to do which they have never, as a majority wanted to carry out.

Which vote though? The country wide one that voted out or the GE afterwards one were some constituencies, who over-whelmingly voted remain, voted in a MP to represent their views?

 

[Foxholer]

I am more leaning towards putting the deals to a referendum, no option to remain, to break the deadlock

That would work for me! But I doubt there's actually time to get it done!

 

[spongebob59]

Went past Manston today, thier in full swing for operation stack/bloc, whatever its called !

 

[Mudball]

That would work for me! But I doubt there's actually time to get it done!

When i suggested that a few posts ago, you said you did not agree.. did you change your mind since breakfast

 

[Mudball]

I know the Petition should be in the random irritatant thread by Remoaners section... But amongst the many petition tracking sites (which help to avoid the actual site crashing), this is quite a good one, as it puts the constituencies in order of how many signatures they have. What does your constituency say? has it changed? . https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

 

[SocketRocket]

I know the Petition should be in the random irritatant thread by Remoaners section... But amongst the many petition tracking sites (which help to avoid the actual site crashing), this is quite a good one, as it puts the constituencies in order of how many signatures they have. What does your constituency say? has it changed? . https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

How can you know if it's changed with such a small representation of the referendum vote.

 

[Old Skier]

Which vote though? The country wide one that voted out or the GE afterwards one were some constituencies, who over-whelmingly voted remain, voted in a MP to represent their views?

Was this the GE were the major parties had on their manifesto that they were honouring the referendum. So the electorate understood they were voting for their MPs who were supposed to be committed to leave. If you are trying to say that the over-whelming of those who voted in the GE voted remain I'd like to know which Diane Abbot school of maths worked that out and if true the Liberals would be the main party.

 

[Foxholer]

EU forces choice of their political lives on MPs
ROBERT PESTON PESTON'S POLITICS

After yesterday’s historic negotiations between EU leaders here in Brussels – while Theresa May was out of the room – here is what we now know about Brexit.
We are not leaving the EU on 29 March 2019, the Brexit day that was supposedly set in stone.
We may yet leave on 22 May this year, but only if this week MPs finally – at a third time of asking, and probably on Tuesday – vote for Theresa May’s widely derided Brexit plan.
We could leave without a Brexit deal on the new Brexit day, 12 April – if the PM’s vote is lost.
Or we could leave at an undetermined future date with a different Brexit plan, or hold a referendum, or even revoke our decision to leave if by 12 April MPs coalesce around some other route than a no-deal Brexit in just the next three weeks, and if they are prepared for the UK to participate in European Parliamentary elections the following week.
All clear to you about what’s going to happen?
No of course not.
What was settled by Macron, Merkel, Tusk et al was the ultimate diplomatic humiliation for the UK.
Because more than 1000 days after the UK voted to leave the UK, we are in practice very little nearer knowing what that vote actually means.
If I were to call this a dog’s breakfast I would be insulting dog’s breakfasts. There may not be a pooch on the planet that would swallow this indignity.
But the prime minister has and we are.
So what happens now?
Well, nobody knows – probably not even God. Because there are too many imponderables.
If the decision were settled just on where the Brexit preferences of MPs probably lie, the UK would probably pivot to the softest Brexit – the so-called Common Market 2.0 – and go for an undetermined but finite further Brexit extension.
But that route probably blows up the Tory Party completely and would also see a lesser haemorrhaging of Labour: the Tories could split right down the middle, between the Brexiter purists of the ERG and the rest.
And for any of this to happen, backbenchers – led by Boles, Cooper, Letwin et al – would in the coming days have to completely take control of the process of shaping and delivering Brexit from Theresa May and the government.
So there we have it. MPs have a weekend to decide whether to initiate civil war against Theresa May and the government and instigate a once-in-a-century reconfiguration of the structure of political parties.
As for whether Theresa May can actually survive as PM more than another few minutes having set up this titanic of all parliament struggles, that seems almost a side issue now.
Her fate will presumably almost be sealed this week, if she loses the vote on her deal, and then completely on 12 April if MPs have decided to opt for a lengthy Brexit extension – since she said unequivocally in the Commons on Wednesday that she was “not prepared to delay Brexit any longer than 30 June”.
But funnily enough, whether she stays or goes seems fairly trivial compared to all the other nation-determining stuff.
Source: ITV News

Anyone for a full revocation of Article 50 by the end of April? Maybe the only way the Tories and Labour can survive intact is to give the decision to the people.

As ever, Preston is spot on!

Shambles - but that was ALWAYS the EU Commission's intention!

 

[Foxholer]

When i suggested that a few posts ago, you said you did not agree.. did you change your mind since breakfast

I don't believe you had eliminated the Remain option! If you had,...my bad!

 

[IanM]

Macron's speech today quite clear about the Federalist intent....................... but keep talking "deals" eh?

 

[Hobbit]

How can you know if it's changed with such a small representation of the referendum vote.

Valid point.

When you think how emotive the issue is, yet less than 10% of those that voted in June '16 have signed it - and they don't even have to go out in the rain to do it. Hell of number for a gov.uk petition but hardly indicative.

Not to worry, the MP's will sell out regardless next week

 

[Old Skier]

I know the Petition should be in the random irritatant thread by Remoaners section... But amongst the many petition tracking sites (which help to avoid the actual site crashing), this is quite a good one, as it puts the constituencies in order of how many signatures they have. What does your constituency say? has it changed? . https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

I presume then that the rest of voters in those constituencies are leavers then.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Was this the GE were the major parties had on their manifesto that they were honouring the referendum. So the electorate understood they were voting for their MPs who were supposed to be committed to leave. If you are trying to say that the over-whelming of those who voted in the GE voted remain I'd like to know which Diane Abbot school of maths worked that out and if true the Liberals would be the main party.

No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isn’t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We can’t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.

 

[Foxholer]

How can you know if it's changed with such a small representation of the referendum vote.

You surely know that it really only takes a 'tiny' representation to actually produce a valid survey!

However, this IS NOT a valid survey! It's a load of very angry remainers who want to overturn the original result. Even though I voted Remain, this action is abhorrent to my sense of democracy!

 

[GB72]

No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isn’t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We can’t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.

So by that reckoning, if the shoe was on the other foot and legislation were introduced to federalise europe, you would not be asking f9r a referendum to ensure that remained the will of the people.

 

[Foxholer]

Was this the GE were the major parties had on their manifesto that they were honouring the referendum. So the electorate understood they were voting for their MPs who were supposed to be committed to leave. If you are trying to say that the over-whelming of those who voted in the GE voted remain I'd like to know which Diane Abbot school of maths worked that out and if true the Liberals would be the main party.

H'mm. If you check out Labour's 2017 Manifesto, there's a distinct loophole!

 

[Old Skier]

No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isn’t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We can’t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.

I voted to leave, I didn't vote for a deal. If our politicians come up with a deal that could pass through Parliament I would accept it good or bad because that's their job. They haven't been able to agree the deal that has been offered by the EU which, in my simplistic way, suggest, to complete the Democratic will of the people, we have to leave with no deal and then negotiate as a non EU country.

Many interim agreements have been agreed regardless of us leaving with or without a deal. Never make the headlines and rarely highlighted in Parliament.

So this is the reasoning I have come to about the worth of our votes as everything is n place for the politicians to carry out the result of the referendum yet they are now openly talking about us staying in the EU.