Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Doon frae Troon]

Well done you, three totally wrong 'broken record' arrogant responses in five lines of script.

Scotland's main problem ATM is a Brexit which 62% of our nation do not want but we have to suffer it being inflicted upon us by a UK Westminster government.

Do you seriously think that Scotland will not be unable to actually survive and flourish outside of The UK.

PS.... Change 'Scots to English' and 'English to EU' In your first paragraph and have a wee smile.

 

[GreiginFife]

Inside Scotland many dont care what he says.

Amen to that. Guy's an absolute bawbag.

 

[Foxholer]

...
Do you seriously think that Scotland will not be unable to actually survive and flourish outside of The UK.
...

With 'logic' like that, they'll be so confused, they'll either do nothing (aka what happened last time) or, again a pretty common state, collapse from infighting and apathy!

 

[Slime]

They have British passports which makes them politically British.
The island of Ireland is part of the geographic British Isles also.

Perhaps you should also check alleged facts?

FYI : Britain is the island consisting of England, Scotland, and Wales.

Not once did you mention The British Isles or the 'politically British', just saying!

 

[Foxholer]

FYI : Britain is the island consisting of England, Scotland, and Wales.

Not once did you mention The British Isles or the 'politically British', just saying!

Boys, boys! Stop arguing over semantics.

The area governed by Westminster is called the United Kingdom. That's certainly a bad title currently!

 

[Sweep]

I did educate myself thank you, I voted to leave.
I expected once the result was announced for the work to start, whether you like it or not, the ones in control after the votes were counted was the tory party, why did it take her to loosing the vote a few weeks back to start discussing “matters” with other parties, how has she managed to cause so much upset in her own party?

As a leaver I feel let down by the Government, not Labour or SNP or Plaid Cymru or the Liberals.

Some people just want to blame everyone else instead of those in charge.

I agree with all of this. I would add though that I also feel let down by the EU. We should have been treated better. I don’t expect us to have our cake and eat it and I don’t expect any give aways. But I do think everyone, including the people of other EU nations, have a right to expect proper and sincere negotiation from both sides.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I agree with all of this. I would add though that I also feel let down by the EU. We should have been treated better. I don’t expect us to have our cake and eat it and I don’t expect any give aways. But I do think everyone, including the people of other EU nations, have a right to expect proper and sincere negotiation from both sides.

I’ve got no issue with the EU, why? No time for them because of their behaviour over the last 15-20 years and the direction we’ve been getting pulled in and how we’ve been treated.
I expected nothing less from them, I just thought this time and us leaving we would of had (or tried to gain) the upper hand.

 

[Sweep]

But yet no criticism of the tory MP’s who support a 2nd Referendum or the Liberals etc, the fuss is about Labour and that’s because she doesn’t have some of her own MP’s backing her and if they vote with Labour she’ll lose.

If you look back on the pages of this thread and the previous one you will see that I have been pretty scathing about Tory MP’s who support a second referendum. The liberals and SNP less so, because at least they are sticking to their position as set out in their manifesto.
Nevertheless, I believe any MP who calls for a second referendum is guilty of embracing democracy when it gets them elected and then being happy to dump it when it delivers something they don’t like. It is an utterly appalling position for an elected representative to take and places us on the precipice of a calamity which will be hard if not impossible to come back from.
The current fuss is about Labour because at this late hour they have changed their position radically and have threatened to embrace this anti-democratic stance, thereby deserting millions of their own supporters in their heartlands. Including you it seems. It is utterly disgraceful.

 

[Sweep]

Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.

Maybe we should clarify that many does not mean majority.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

If you look back on the pages of this thread and the previous one you will see that I have been pretty scathing about Tory MP’s who support a second referendum. The liberals and SNP less so, because at least they are sticking to their position as set out in their manifesto.
Nevertheless, I believe any MP who calls for a second referendum is guilty of embracing democracy when it gets them elected and then being happy to dump it when it delivers something they don’t like. It is an utterly appalling position for an elected representative to take and places us on the precipice of a calamity which will be hard if not impossible to come back from.
The current fuss is about Labour because at this late hour they have changed their position radically and have threatened to embrace this anti-democratic stance, thereby deserting millions of their own supporters in their heartlands. Including you it seems. It is utterly disgraceful.

I am pissed off if they support one, I’ve said I don’t like Corbyn, but I see the whole thing differently, if it was roles reversed and Labour was in charge and the tories changed their stance rather than voting for something they didn’t support, then I would say that’s the luxury of being in opposition, less responsibility.

 

[Sweep]

I’ve got no issue with the EU, why? No time for them because of their behaviour over the last 15-20 years and the direction we’ve been getting pulled in and how we’ve been treated.
I expected nothing less from them, I just thought this time and us leaving we would of had (or tried to gain) the upper hand.

Like you I didn’t expect any different, but as I said we should have been treated better.

 

[Sweep]

I am pissed off if they support one, I’ve said I don’t like Corbyn, but I see the whole thing differently, if it was roles reversed and Labour was in charge and the tories changed their stance rather than voting for something they didn’t support, then I would say that’s the luxury of being in opposition, less responsibility.

I would agree if we were talking about the Lib Dem’s or SNP etc who have no chance of governing. But this is the Opposition against a minority government on the biggest political event since WW2. There is no luxury of Opposition here. This is no time for party politics from any side. This is a time for responsible actions.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I would agree if we were talking about the Lib Dem’s or SNP etc who have no chance of governing. But this is the Opposition against a minority government on the biggest political event since WW2. There is no luxury of Opposition here. This is no time for party politics from any side. This is a time for responsible actions.

And in their opinion and mine, it would be wrong to agree to a bad deal, the power/control to avoid the 2nd referendum still lies with TM.

 

[Taz]

More
@EmmanuelMacron says that "We would support an extension request only if it was justified by a new choice of the British...but we would in no way accept an extension without a clear objective."

 

[Lord Tyrion]

More
@EmmanuelMacron says that "We would support an extension request only if it was justified by a new choice of the British...but we would in no way accept an extension without a clear objective."

That's a pretty fair comment. Why keep kicking the can down the road? At some point you have to say enough is enough, both sides.

 

[Foxholer]

... I would add though that I also feel let down by the EU. We should have been treated better...

Why would you have any right to feel that? UK chose to leave the EU, not the other way around! They (the EU negotiators) are (supposedly) acting in the best interests of the members that remain!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Why would you have any right to feel that? UK chose to leave the EU, not the other way around! They (the EU negotiators) are (supposedly) acting in the best interests of the members that remain!

Are they though? The UK chose to leave the EU because people did not like the route it was taking. They could have softened slightly, perhaps a two track EU, but they sent Cameron away with nothing. This could have been avoided if the EU had genuinely believed we may leave and offered a little something. Now that we are in this situation do you genuinely think they are working in the best interets of the people and businesses of the remaining 27 or in their own best interests? I think they are working for the latter, they are in their bubble and they do not see the wider picture on the ground.

I don't expect them to hand over the EU jewels to a country leaving but they could have carried this out in a way that was less confrontational and more likely to succeed for all parties.

 

[Taz]

Choice by speaker of SNP amendment, ruling out no-deal Brexit ever and not just on 29 March, is important. It ought to be supported by all opposition parties, including Labour, and many Tory MPs, given their public statements. Let’s see
And if it passes by a serious margin, it signals that the vote on @theresa_may’s deal on or before 12 March will in effect be a choice between her deal, a future version of her deal, some other possible deal and a referendum.

 

[Foxholer]

Are they though? The UK chose to leave the EU because people did not like the route it was taking. They could have softened slightly, perhaps a two track EU, but they sent Cameron away with nothing. This could have been avoided if the EU had genuinely believed we may leave and offered a little something. Now that we are in this situation do you genuinely think they are working in the best interets of the people and businesses of the remaining 27 or in their own best interests? I think they are working for the latter, they are in their bubble and they do not see the wider picture on the ground.

I don't expect them to hand over the EU jewels to a country leaving but they could have carried this out in a way that was less confrontational and more likely to succeed for all parties.

Did you notice the word 'supposedly' in my post?!

Given UK's decision to leave, it's up to the 'remaining 27', not the UK, to control their negotiators! They may, or may not, be influenced by other issues (like making it difficult for other mmbers to leave and perceived future structure of the group) but that's virtually irrelevant to actual negotiations!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Did you notice the word 'supposedly' in my post?!

Given UK's decision to leave, it's up to the 'remaining 27', not the UK, to control their negotiators! They may, or may not, be influenced by other issues (like making it difficult for other mmbers to leave and perceived future structure of the group) but that's virtually irrelevant to actual negotiations!

I did, absolutely . It's up to all parties to control their negotiators but I don't know that either have done that well. TM has let her advisor have too much control, the 27 have let the bureaucrats run with it for too long. Add into that some ridiculous posturing from all sides and you have the mess we are left with. It's a shame it could not start again and we could let some grown ups do the talking.