Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[User62651]

It has come to this situation due to her poor negotiating. She seems to have allowed the EU to delay the talks on trade arrangements with their insistence on only discussing the Irish border and the divorce bill. The EU have used the Irish Republic as their tool to do this and we have fallen for it Hook Line and Sinker as time has run out.

She should have shown some back bone and insisted nothing is agreed until all is agreed and that's what she was saying at one time. Labour have been completely vague on what they wanted to happen other than their pie in the sky six tests. The likes of Sourbry, Green and Clarke have acted disgracefully in my opinion, they may well have been Remainers but should have followed the instruction given by the peoples Vote.
So now we find ourselves in this primeval soup where all sorts of slithering creatures are shaming the mother of parliaments by pursuing personal agendas rather than accepting democracy, putting away party politics and working to make Brexit a great success.

Just more blame blame blame - blame EU, blame Soubry/Green/Clarke, blame Irish republic, blame May, blame everyone but the lying toads of the Brexit campaign who have given up and disappeared.

Brexiteers have No plan no idea........ just leave.

 

[harpo_72]

Just more blame blame blame - blame EU, blame Soubry/Green/Clarke, blame Irish republic, blame May, blame everyone but the lying toads of the Brexit campaign who have given up and disappeared.

Brexiteers have No plan no idea........ just leave.

🤣👍👏 succinct !

 

[SocketRocket]

Just more blame blame blame - blame EU, blame Soubry/Green/Clarke, blame Irish republic, blame May, blame everyone but the lying toads of the Brexit campaign who have given up and disappeared.

Brexiteers have No plan no idea........ just leave.

So should we blame it all on the Bus or the 17 million who just wanted to leave.

 

[harpo_72]

So should we blame it all on the Bus or the 17 million who just wanted to leave.

Why? Surely the blame lies with the people who have misled with unattainable promises?
There are no other deals to be had TM got the only one ... and yeah it’s pile of pooh, we all know that. Then there is no deal .. the great unknown, the one they are trying to squirrel away resources for, but why if it’s the great hope? Probably because it to is a pile of pooh, just a different colour.
Then there is remain, the EU bogeyman to blame for all that is not right in your town ... because it really impacts grass roots levels .. unlike local government.

 

[SocketRocket]

Why? Surely the blame lies with the people who have misled with unattainable promises?
There are no other deals to be had TM got the only one ... and yeah it’s pile of pooh, we all know that. Then there is no deal .. the great unknown, the one they are trying to squirrel away resources for, but why if it’s the great hope? Probably because it to is a pile of pooh, just a different colour.
Then there is remain, the EU bogeyman to blame for all that is not right in your town ... because it really impacts grass roots levels .. unlike local government.

As.much as I would like to discuss this with you further it will only result in you throwing insults around, so best to do what I said previously and ignore you.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Why? Surely the blame lies with the people who have misled with unattainable promises?
There are no other deals to be had TM got the only one ... and yeah it’s pile of pooh, we all know that. Then there is no deal .. the great unknown, the one they are trying to squirrel away resources for, but why if it’s the great hope? Probably because it to is a pile of pooh, just a different colour.
Then there is remain, the EU bogeyman to blame for all that is not right in your town ... because it really impacts grass roots levels .. unlike local government.

Doesn't some of the blame have to lie with the incompetent performance of our negotiators? I was working out in Germany during the negotiations and almost every day I was there were stories of different German manufacturers demanding that Angela Merkel put pressure on the EU to strike a deal. In the majority of cases these weren't requests they were demands with withdrawal of support for Merkel being threatened if this wasn't done.

It seems as though for some reason our negotiators haven't taken advantage of the cards we held, the main ones being that several EU countries sell a massive amount into our market and that others rely on UK tourism for a large percentage of their income.

There is no criticism of the EU negotiators in this post - whether implied or direct - as they have done a fantastic job in negotiating in the best interests of the EU. But our negotiators appear to have done a very poor job.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Doesn't some of the blame have to lie with the incompetent performance of our negotiators? I was working out in Germany during the negotiations and almost every day I was there were stories of different German manufacturers demanding that Angela Merkel put pressure on the EU to strike a deal. In the majority of cases these weren't requests they were demands with withdrawal of support for Merkel being threatened if this wasn't done.

It seems as though for some reason our negotiators haven't taken advantage of the cards we held, the main ones being that several EU countries sell a massive amount into our market and that others rely on UK tourism for a large percentage of their income.

There is no criticism of the EU negotiators in this post - whether implied or direct - as they have done a fantastic job in negotiating in the best interests of the EU. But our negotiators appear to have done a very poor job.

No, some of the blame doesn't rest with them; all of it does. They may have some mitigation in that May & others no doubt interfered and undermined, but the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.

 

[SocketRocket]

No, some of the blame doesn't rest with them; all of it does. They may have some mitigation in that May & others no doubt interfered and undermined, but the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.

Are they not constrained by the roadmap our politicians have given them. It also seems by the resignations of two Brexit Ministers that the negotiators have been undermined.

 

[Rlburnside]

No, some of the blame doesn't rest with them; all of it does. They may have some mitigation in that May & others no doubt interfered and undermined, but the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.

I don't think all the blame lies with the negotiators not that they have done a good job but we had 3 lead negotiators resign because May wouldn't listen and give them more support.

 

[Mudball]

So the House of Lords have rejected by a 100+ ... how dare an unelected set of people go against the wishes of the people!!
We should have a referendum to remove an unelected set of people from the parliament.. the same way we choose not to have unelected Brussels
I am assuming the Brexit camp agrees..

 

[SocketRocket]

So the House of Lords have rejected by a 100+ ... how dare an unelected set of people go against the wishes of the people!!
We should have a referendum to remove an unelected set of people from the parliament.. the same way we choose not to have unelected Brussels
I am assuming the Brexit camp agrees..

I think there is a place in Westminster for a second house but it's contents need a radical change.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I don't think all the blame lies with the negotiators not that they have done a good job but we had 3 lead negotiators resign because May wouldn't listen and give them more support.

Fair comment; maybe I should have said negotiations rather than negotiators.

 

[Hobbit]

Fair comment; maybe I should have said negotiations rather than negotiators.

I’m inclined to think our negotiators were riding to orders. You’ve only got to look at what Olly Robbins was doing, under May’s instructions, whilst Davis was trying to negotiate.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I for one would like to know the geography and number of the 'doors' that May said she has recently knocked on to add weight to her arguments.

 

[Hacker Khan]

There are a multitude of people and organisations you can lay the blame at for this, the negotiators (incidentally I feel that if had had different negotiators, give or take the odd mad hard right EU hater, the result would have been much the same), the red bus, the media for creating an environment of fear, the government, the opposition, ideological hard brexit leavers with promises of the land of milk and honey, blinkered 'The EU is great' remainers, the list goes on.

Personally I think the whole concept of having the referendum with a binary choice and no practical details on how by far the most disruptive option would happen, and what that would mean, is the root cause. Staying was always going to be simple to enact as you just basically carry on with all the economic and political mechanisms and institutions that have been built up over decades. Disentangling ourselves from that, as we have seen, is a monumentally difficult task. So giving the public the choice, with little explanation of how we would practically enact their wishes or what it would look like has, to me, got us where we are. So I'm with Danny Dyer on causes.

And there are no winners, we have lost most of what little trust we had in politicians, politics has become more fractured, we have been doing very little else when it comes to governing apart from Brexit over the last 2 years, business are operating under a lot of uncertainty, society has become that little bit more divided, certain nasty elements of society feel they have been given legitimacy to spout their vile nonsense, etc.

Despite what some remainers think, democracy will take a bit of a kicking if we do not leave in some form and despite what some remainers think, almost all the evidence suggests a hard Brexit will be very detrimental for this country. The sad thing will be if those are our only two options. And I've said it before and I'll say it again, but if we want to take back control we really need to have a better quality of politician and a better quality of debate and discourse in our politics, media and the nation as a whole if we have any chance of surviving in a world with increasing political, economic and environmental challenges.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

There is a third option proposed by Joanna Cherry which is that of a national unity government.
Unfortunately that would need an awful lot of notches to fall into a blooming big wheel. But who knows, nothing would surprise me now.

 

[SocketRocket]

There is a third option proposed by Joanna Cherry which is that of a national unity government.
Unfortunately that would need an awful lot of notches to fall into a blooming big wheel. But who knows, nothing would surprise me now.

What is a National Unity Government and how would it bring a solution to the divided country.

 

[IanM]

Referendum voted out.... massive campaign to ensure we stay in ensued.
- Legal challenge funded by persons unknown
- Constant media campaign
- Government messing to achieve a deal no one wants

Get them talking economic disaster so the dont talk about Federalism and democracy.

All leading to Ref 2 and staying in as folk are scared or bored.

Its working perfectly.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Referendum voted out.... massive campaign to ensure we stay in ensued.
- Legal challenge funded by persons unknown
- Constant media campaign
- Government messing to achieve a deal no one wants

Get them talking economic disaster so the dont talk about Federalism and democracy.

All leading to Ref 2 and staying in as folk are scared or bored.

Its working perfectly.

If you are complaining about constant media campaigns and funding of campaigns by unknown people then I'd suggest the leave side are not completely innocent on that front. But remember, they are all out to get you and what may look to everyone as a complete and utter failure of parliament and governance is in fact an elaborate plot dreamt up by some shady cartel to ensure we stay in. Probably the illuminate. Or George Soros.

 

[IanM]

Exhibit 1 : Gina Miller, who is she, and who funded her?
Exhibit 2 : Every other vote that the EU has lost. What happened to them?
I could go on.

No shady plot, far from it. Precise and wilful path to Federalism via progressive treaty.

But of course i could be wrong. May could take us out on WTO terms in the morning. But I havent been wrong on any of this yet,