Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[bluewolf]

The advice was given on a matter of proceedings. If the commons want the rules changing, change them. It been around long enough.

What RULE would that be then?

 

[Old Skier]

What RULE would that be then?

The one that he apparently broke. If your really interested you can always trawl the internet. I'm off to get a plane to snow ravaged Austria.

 

[bluewolf]

The one that he apparently broke. If your really interested you can always trawl the internet. I'm off to get a plane to snow ravaged Austria.

Have a good trip mate.

However, it wasn't a rule. It was a precedent. And by definition, a set precedent is something that has been done that is different to what happened previously, which means that the precedent he broke was, at one time, just as controversial a change. It should happen more than it does, but politicians are cowards in this respect.

 

[Old Skier]

Ta for the info.

 

[MegaSteve]

Whatever the rights or wrongs of what Big John did doesn't change the immutable fact he's a five star cock... Place him and his missus right up there, with the Hamiltons, as being all that's bad with bureaucracy...

 

[SocketRocket]

My last word on the Bercow incident.

IMO, what he did was set a much needed precedent. He allowed MP's to vote on a decision rather than let the Executive force it through.

However, one aspect of the whole thing has been making me chuckle.

People are losing their minds over the fact that he ignored advice. That advice would have come from an unelected bureaucrat. The very same type of bureaucrat that the very same people appear to passionately distrust in the EU. 🤷‍♂️

The main complaint here seems to be that he has been inconsistent with the policy, letting this one through but stopping others.
Surely the advice from the Clerk of the House is in a similar way that a Magistrate gets advice from the Clerk of the court due to them not being experts on the law and protocol and we know that Remainers love their experts.

 

[Tashyboy]

Just outta interest was Bercows ruling to state that the government had three days to come back with an alternative as against 21. Should Mays deal not get voted through.

 

[bluewolf]

Just outta interest was Bercows ruling to state that the government had three days to come back with an alternative as against 21. Should Mays deal not get voted through.

No. His decision was that MP's should vote on an amendment stating that the Government must present Plan B within 3 days, rather than 21. He allowed the House to control the process, not just the Government.
Whether you think he was right (he was) or wrong (he wasn't 😉), it would appear strange to complain that we have too much goddamn Democracy.

 

[drdel]

No. His decision was that MP's should vote on an amendment stating that the Government must present Plan B within 3 days, rather than 21. He allowed the House to control the process, not just the Government.
Whether you think he was right (he was) or wrong (he wasn't 😉), it would appear strange to complain that we have too much goddamn Democracy.

Its not really the amendment itself but that he'd refused other MPs on the grounds amendments were not being permitted, against advice and precedent.

 

[bluewolf]

Its not really the amendment itself but that he'd refused other MPs on the grounds amendments were not being permitted, against advice and precedent.

He made a decision, based on what he thought was right. He recognised the the Executive was attempting to run down the clock and force through a minority decision. He made sure that the most important political process in decades wasn't cheated by a government that had already been found in contempt once before. It was a difficult decision that has put him right in the firing line of the red tops and other Right/Far Right media organisations. Personally, I think it was brave.
I should also point out that anyone could have found him in contempt and raised a vote of no confidence in him. Not one person has. That's quite telling considering the vitriol with which he's been attacked, isn't it?

 

[Hacker Khan]

The main complaint here seems to be that he has been inconsistent with the policy, letting this one through but stopping others.
Surely the advice from the Clerk of the House is in a similar way that a Magistrate gets advice from the Clerk of the court due to them not being experts on the law and protocol and we know that Remainers love their experts.

You are not wrong. It's as if the whole Brexit process is a complex mass of contradictions and assumptions on both sides. And people just seem to pick and choose the bits that suit them when it is expedient or backs up their argument. But in the real world it is hugely complex issue and some may well argue, something that we really should have given more thought to before we asked a very binary question to the general public with little to no mention of how we would practically achieve the desired outcome. Still, we'll know for next time.......

 

[harpo_72]

He made a decision, based on what he thought was right. He recognised the the Executive was attempting to run down the clock and force through a minority decision. He made sure that the most important political process in decades wasn't cheated by a government that had already been found in contempt once before. It was a difficult decision that has put him right in the firing line of the red tops and other Right/Far Right media organisations. Personally, I think it was brave.
I should also point out that anyone could have found him in contempt and raised a vote of no confidence in him. Not one person has. That's quite telling considering the vitriol with which he's been attacked, isn't it?

The truth is in the direction the vote went

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm a little curious who you voted for in the last GE as 80% of those that voted, voted for parties that were supposedly committed to Brexit.

I voted for the National Health Action Party candidate standing against Jeremy Hunt - then Health Secretary

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Maybe its because Leavers have been insulted right from the very declaration of the result. "Thick, old, northern..."

You often talk of division but seem very happy to continue to be divisive. I'm inclined to think that although you often say you'd like to see the end of that division you actually believe in the things you rail against. Your backhanded comments like "many Leavers(not necessarily on here)" aren't even subtle.

Can I suggest Matthew 5:38-40. Think about what merit there is in repeating that divisiveness. How does it move the debate forward? It doesn't.

I have never talked of Leave voters North, South, East or West as being thick, stupid or ignorant. In fact I hear more from Leave supporters claiming this than I actually hear Remain voters saying it. But I suppose it all helps keep the fires of indignation and anger burning about the Remain elite...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The problems with SiLH's posts is that they are contradictory. He repeatedly talks of healing the divisions in the country and how those that voted Leave need to compromise. But he also posts that he wants Brexit stopped. His solution to healing the divisions in the country appears to be to ignore the wishes of 52% of those that voted. Despite his protestations he doesn't want compromise or to heal the divisions, he wants to get his own way and remain in the EU and screw those that voted to leave.

Not true. I think it is an insane act of self harm that we are leaving the EU - but if we are to leave then I hope we leave with at least a transition period - and if possible access to the SM and CU - a transition period that enables business to adapt to their new trading environment and circumstances. I pray that it all goes as well as it can - which might not be that great - but I hope that at least a modicum of the faith shown by many lead Leavers is borne out, I just fear it might be that good and that there are going to be a lot of poorer and disappointed voters out there looking for someone or some group to blame.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So he was giving control back to the UK parliament?

Traitor.......

Though if we go to trading on WTO Rules we'll be handing control of the framework for our trading arrangements, and jurisdiction over disagreements and complaints between UK and other countries, to a completely unelected organisation over which the UK has little or no influence and no representation.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Not true. I think it is an insane act of self harm that we are leaving the EU - but if we are to leave then I hope we leave with at least a transition period - and if possible access to the SM and CU - a transition period that enables business to adapt to their new trading environment and circumstances. I pray that it all goes as well as it can - which might not be that great - but I hope that at least a modicum of the faith shown by many lead Leavers is borne out, I just fear it might be that good and that there are going to be a lot of poorer and disappointed voters out there looking for someone or some group to blame.

You appear to have answered something that I didn't ask. So to make it simple for you......

1) Have you posted on several occasions that Leavers need to compromise on Brexit to heal the divisions in the country?

2) Do you want Brexit stopped?

There's two simple questions for you that only require yes or no answers. And if you're being honest both answers are yes. Therefore my original point was correct. You demand compromise from Leave voters to heal division but want to ignore the wishes of the majority of those that voted to Leave.

 

[harpo_72]

You appear to have answered something that I didn't ask. So to make it simple for you.......

Typical inferred insult as per normal posts from those who respond with “project fear” and “it’ll be alright”
Then think that “remainers” say they are thick ... your giving the ammunition and stirring up the bile.

Does anyone question Rees Mogg’s ability to pooh pooh an opinion on economics given by a professor and professional economist given that Rees studied Geography only ? It’s a bit like listening to your window cleaner giving you dental advice... but hey “project fear” is to blame...

 

[ColchesterFC]

Typical inferred insult as per normal posts from those who respond with “project fear” and “it’ll be alright”
Then think that “remainers” say they are thick ... your giving the ammunition and stirring up the bile.

Does anyone question Rees Mogg’s ability to pooh pooh an opinion on economics given by a professor and professional economist given that Rees studied Geography only ? It’s a bit like listening to your window cleaner giving you dental advice... but hey “project fear” is to blame...

Just the one small problem with your post, I'm not a Leaver. Although I didn't get the chance to vote in the referendum, due to work taking me away at the last minute, I wanted (and still want) to Remain in the EU. But I'm balanced enough to call out hypocritical posts such as those from SiLH and others. Perhaps you could highlight the posts were I have responded with "project fear" or "it'll be alright".

 

[SocketRocket]

Typical inferred insult as per normal posts from those who respond with “project fear” and “it’ll be alright”
Then think that “remainers” say they are thick ... your giving the ammunition and stirring up the bile.

Does anyone question Rees Mogg’s ability to pooh pooh an opinion on economics given by a professor and professional economist given that Rees studied Geography only ? It’s a bit like listening to your window cleaner giving you dental advice... but hey “project fear” is to blame...

Another post full of irony. Complain about people making insults in one paragraph and then insult them in the next. 🙄