Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[ColchesterFC]

One big problem was that the UK government weren't prepared to walk away from the negotiations and the EU knew it despite all the "No deal is better than a bad deal" posturing from Theresa May. We should have been tougher early in the negotiations and said "Stuff you, we'll leave with no deal as you aren't prepared to actually negotiate. That means no £39 billion payment, zero access to our territorial waters for your fishing fleet, and we'll impose tariffs of 25% on all car, wine and food imports and a 50% tariff on holidays from the UK to the EU". The problem with that would have been the wild howls of outrage from many on the Remain side even if it was being done as a negotiation strategy.

 

[MegaSteve]

We wouldn’t have been shafted had Farage not taken his role seriously and also the other wasters ... not to mention all the Tory prime ministers who talked tough but in reality were not honest enough to say or guide the MEP representatives to vote on the issues

We were shafted when Major signed on the dotted line, on our behalf , without first asking if that was what we wanted....

 

[Hacker Khan]

One big problem was that the UK government weren't prepared to walk away from the negotiations and the EU knew it despite all the "No deal is better than a bad deal" posturing from Theresa May. We should have been tougher early in the negotiations and said "Stuff you, we'll leave with no deal as you aren't prepared to actually negotiate. That means no £39 billion payment, zero access to our territorial waters for your fishing fleet, and we'll impose tariffs of 25% on all car, wine and food imports and a 50% tariff on holidays from the UK to the EU". The problem with that would have been the wild howls of outrage from many on the Remain side even if it was being done as a negotiation strategy.

And I suspect the EU would have seen though it in about 3 seconds and said 'off you go then trot off.....' knowing full well we would be shooting ourselves in the foot if we ever went through with it. And am also not sure telling the Uk public that they will have to pay an extra 50% on holidays to Europe would have gone down that well.

 

[SocketRocket]

No, and it never was on offer. It was never going to be on offer. As I said previously, both sides had red lines. They didn't match in the slightest. So, either one side would have to significantly compromise their position, or it was No Deal.

If this is news to anyone then I'm surprised as it's been quite clear. If there is a Good Deal, then why has not one single leading Brexiteer come up with it?

As this goes on a No Deal looks quite attractive.

 

[SocketRocket]

And I suspect the EU would have seen though it in about 3 seconds and said 'off you go then trot off.....' knowing full well we would be shooting ourselves in the foot if we ever went through with it. And am also not sure telling the Uk public that they will have to pay an extra 50% on holidays to Europe would have gone down that well.

That would go down a hoot in Spain and Greece.

 

[bluewolf]

As this goes on a No Deal looks quite attractive.

In the same way that a bullet to the nuts is attractive when compared to one to the head I suppose.

 

[SocketRocket]

In the same way that a bullet to the nuts is attractive when compared to one to the head I suppose.

Please explain whats that bad about it.
https://brexitcentral.com/world-trade-deal-wto-rules-now-best-option-uk/

 

[ColchesterFC]

And am also not sure telling the Uk public that they will have to pay an extra 50% on holidays to Europe would have gone down that well.

Might have been more acceptable if the money raised had been used to subsidise holidays to non EU countries. A holiday for a family of four to Turkey/Florida/South Africa for example suddenly being £800/1000 cheaper for example might have softened the blow a bit.

Although that does run the risk of ruining some nice destinations when the chavs that normally have their cheap week in the sun in Spain find other destinations affordable. ;-)

 

[jp5]

"Stuff you, we'll leave with no deal as you aren't prepared to actually negotiate. That means no £39 billion payment....

I suspect not honouring your legal obligations probably wouldn't be the best beginnings for the UK looking for partners outside the EU.

 

[Dando]

I suspect not honouring your legal obligations probably wouldn't be the best beginnings for the UK looking for partners outside the EU.

Yet the EU refused to even start holding us to ransom until we agreed to giving them a massive brown envelope stuffed full of cash

 

[ColchesterFC]

I suspect not honouring your legal obligations probably wouldn't be the best beginnings for the UK looking for partners outside the EU.

I wasn't suggesting not paying anything but I'm not convinced that all of the £39 billion are our legal obligations. I suspect that the figure has been somewhat inflated. I've got no evidence to back up that assertion, only my suspicions, but equally I've seen no evidence or a breakdown to show that we do owe that amount.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Might have been more acceptable if the money raised had been used to subsidise holidays to non EU countries. A holiday for a family of four to Turkey/Florida/South Africa for example suddenly being £800/1000 cheaper for example might have softened the blow a bit.

Although that does run the risk of ruining some nice destinations when the chavs that normally have their cheap week in the sun in Spain find other destinations affordable. ;-)

Absolutely no chance of happening as not withstanding the logistical arrangements of having such a scheme, I'm not sure governments should really be spending our ever more scarce public money to subsidise families to go on a holiday to Disneyland.

Trouble is I'm never sure if these type of suggestions are just a mostly throw away remark, if so then fair enough. Or if they are serious proposals that one side of the debate is suggesting

 

[Hacker Khan]

I wasn't suggesting not paying anything but I'm not convinced that all of the £39 billion are our legal obligations. I suspect that the figure has been somewhat inflated. I've got no evidence to back up that assertion, only my suspicions, but equally I've seen no evidence or a breakdown to show that we do owe that amount.

Don't take this personally but I'd tend to believe that with a figure that large, some accountant and legal types on our side have looked at the figure, agreed that is seems OK and signed off on it, over your admittedly wild assumption with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

 

[Hacker Khan]

That would go down a hoot in Spain and Greece.

So a lose lose then. Which is a perfect metaphor for where we currently are with the Brexit deal really.

 

[bluewolf]

Please explain whats that bad about it.
https://brexitcentral.com/world-trade-deal-wto-rules-now-best-option-uk/

If you're just going to provide links to Pro Brexit Matthew Elliot owned propaganda sites then it's not really worth discussing.

Here's the latest from the Independant..

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/no-deal-brexit-0

 

[Hobbit]

I wasn't suggesting not paying anything but I'm not convinced that all of the £39 billion are our legal obligations. I suspect that the figure has been somewhat inflated. I've got no evidence to back up that assertion, only my suspicions, but equally I've seen no evidence or a breakdown to show that we do owe that amount.

I wouldn't worry about that figure. The EU have also acknowledged what they owe the UK for % ownership of EU assets.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Absolutely no chance of happening as not withstanding the logistical arrangements of having such a scheme, I'm not sure governments should really be spending our ever more scarce public money to subsidise families to go on a holiday to Disneyland.

Trouble is I'm never sure if these type of suggestions are just a mostly throw away remark, if so then fair enough. Or if they are serious proposals that one side of the debate is suggesting

It wasn't meant as a serious suggestion. I'd hoped the 2nd paragraph would indicate that. Perhaps I could've been clearer.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Don't take this personally but I'd tend to believe that with a figure that large, some accountant and legal types on our side have looked at the figure, agreed that is seems OK and signed off on it, over your admittedly wild assumption with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

You could well be correct but as it appears that our negotiating strategy has been to bend over and take it every time the EU has demanded something I'm not convinced haven't done the same with the £39 billion figure as well.

 

[SocketRocket]

So a lose lose then. Which is a perfect metaphor for where we currently are with the Brexit deal really.

Couldn't agree more, we are stuck between a weak PM running scared and a parliament full of game players that allow the EU negotiaters to treat us with the contempt we deserve.

 

[Hacker Khan]

You could well be correct but as it appears that our negotiating strategy has been to bend over and take it every time the EU has demanded something I'm not convinced haven't done the same with the £39 billion figure as well.

I'd argue, rightly or wrongly, our negotiating strategy has been mostly based around damage limitation.