Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

I am not talking about her Remain and People Vote stance - but her demand in respect of the rights of parliament.

Any Leave voter who lambasted or abused Gina Miller for forcing the government on Art50 and the a parliamentary vote should apologise or at least feel some shame - most specifically the Leave Leaders who were so vocal in the condemnations should be forced to do so publicly. Miller was right in her demands that parliament should have a say - for precisely the sort of reasons that find many leave voters complaining about the May Agreement demanding MPs vote against it.

Not all Leave voters abused Miller on what she did - but very many.

On the Leave Leaders

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...4K6n45CxyQCh-l6RxZhqerWx1r0fj0Msc7Sx4iADbtqls

Sorry to labour the point. You have now gone from "many in the Leave camp," to "most specifically the Leave Leaders," and now back to "very many." No, no and thrice no. Its this very generalising that you do that gets you the flak. Its like saying all youngster voted Remain, and all over 60's voted Leave. Generalising is lazy and ignorant.

 

[Foxholer]

...Even if there was a 'list' what on earth would you (or members of the public) do with this information given that much of it would need expert interpretation so it would simply cause more confusion.

H'mm! That seems rather (actiually...VERY) condescending! I hope it was not meant to be! I would expect actual expert (and a lot of inexpert!) interpretation would actually be forthcoming once such a list was published!

As there is no definition of what entails "a hard Brexit" there is no answer and no list....

I would expect such a definition of 'hard-Brexit' to be made pretty early in any documentation produced!

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry to labour the point. You have now gone from "many in the Leave camp," to "most specifically the Leave Leaders," and now back to "very many." No, no and thrice no. Its this very generalising that you do that gets you the flak. Its like saying all youngster voted Remain, and all over 60's voted Leave...

I don't believe SILH was actually 'generalising'! Seems to me that he was being quite specific!

...Generalising is lazy and ignorant.

That's one of the 'best' examples of 'generalising' I've seen!

 

[drdel]

That would be because there is no definition of what entails Brexit...and so May goes on her Lancaster House speech and declares she is delivering Brexit. And the Sunday Times - whilst not liking the Agreement seems to accept that it is the best that can be achieved now.

I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.

 

[Foxholer]

I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.

As, apparently in your opinion, did the entire electorate - you included!

 

[SocketRocket]

And that unbiased source of news - the Sunday Mail (never as shockingly biased as it'd weekday stablemate - the Mail - though even the Mail seems to be moving position now that Dacre has gone) has a pretty excoriating whole page leader on those wishing to get rid of May; vote down May's Agreement and go for No Deal chaotic crash out.

And without mentioning any of the ERG, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, McVey etc by name - it concludes '

They must back the Prime Minister. It is the only responsible course. If they do not take it, they will never be forgiven for the chaos they unleash'

This in today's Sunday Mail.

I have no doubt that there will be many continuing their denial - claiming that the Sunday Mail is wrong - it was always a Remainer newspaper. That another better deal is possible - and that if the EU refuse to budge that a No Deal will be just fine and the talk of chaos is Project Fear.

Meanwhile the silence of Johnson is deafening as he schemes behind behind the back of May. What a snake.

Your post is full of generalising açusations, very poor in my opinion.

Boris keeps quiet and you accuse him scheming behind TMs back like a snake. Your prejudices are not worthy of you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your post is full of generalising açusations, very poor in my opinion.

Boris keeps quiet and you accuse him scheming behind TMs back like a snake. Your prejudices are not worthy of you.

OK then - why are we not hearing from Johnson when he is rarely short of a word or two. We heard him rant on what he thought was going to be in May's Agreement - I am not aware we have heard a word from him since. Probably saving it up for his DT column today.

Johnson is just one of a bunch of self-serving obsessed charlatans that has led the country down the cul-de-sac we now find ourselves in. And now he says nothing. He is indeed despicable.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.

Like 99% of all voters.
That is why we need a second peoples vote.
Trouble is leavers know they have no chance of winning that.
So we blunder on into a blind Brexit.

 

[USER1999]

Yep, he is in the Daily Telegraph today.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/waiting-for-the-penny-to-drop/#comments

There is Ian, looking like a 'staunch' nationalist whilst making a good case for Scottish Independence.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Commentary piece in the i newspaper today by the Remain supporting Ian Birrell starting with Owen Paterson and his ilk of the hard Brexit ('No Surrender to the EU') cabale.

I just pluck out a few of his choicest and - for me - most 'bang on' observations on them. And yes - I agree with every word and the underlying and barely concealed fury and disgust that Birrell feels towards them - it is not just Leave votes who are currently angry...

And even at this eleventh hour, they carry on with their stunts, scheming and selfish refusal to relinquish their cause despite mountainous evidence of unreality and the looming dangers of no deal.

Former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab accuses colleagues of failing to stand up to EU bullies after flouncing out of cabinet when he failed to fix a better deal. Yet the partners from whom we are seeking divorce could not have been clearer, more consistent or more cohesive in setting out possible terms of departure – for all the nonsense spouted here about retaining access to their markets on our terms.

This deal starkly exposes the fallacies behind pledges promulgated by politicians pursuing anachronistic imperial dreams. The Brexiteers sold a vision of a richer, freer and stronger nation once we shook off the shackles of Brussels with their promises to keep out foreigners, slash red tape and salvage the health service.

Now their land of milk and honey has turned sour as dreams strike reality. We end up with less control of destiny. We see diminished national influence, a disunited kingdom, divided citizens, distraught businesses. Yet shameless Brexiteers simply fan a fresh revolt – brushing aside the dismal reality it is fuelled by their own ineptitude after serial failures in key cabinet posts.

They do not care if they tear down a fourth Tory prime minister. They do not care about the economy, firms and jobs. They do not care if they wreck their own party. They do not care if they hand the nation to self-avowed Marxists. They care only about themselves – and they will sacrifice anything on the altar of their own contemptible vanities.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment...on-refuse-abandon-fantasy-put-country-danger/

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Miller's simply a self-promoting individual with a narrow understanding of international trade/economics.

I think you might as well then say exactly the same for the majority of hard-line Brexit supporting MPs and the totality of the ERG. In other words - those who convinced a small majority of the electorate that there is a land of milk and honey out there - a fragrant land of fewer immigrants with more jobs, quieter roads, higher wages, housing and schooling of choice for all.

 

[MegaSteve]

Yep, he is in the Daily Telegraph today.

I am sure all the good and honest hard working folk up north have rushed out to buy their copy so they may keep up with the utterings of Boris... NOT!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I think you might as well then say exactly the same for the majority of hard-line Brexit supporting MPs and the totality of the ERG. In other words - those who convinced a small majority of the electorate that there is a land of milk and honey out there - a fragrant land of fewer immigrants with more jobs, quieter roads, higher wages, housing and schooling of choice for all.

Whatever you may think of MP's, from all sides, they are at least elected and can be removed. Gina Miller, as has already been put so beautifully, is a self promoting individual. I avoid her as best as I can as I have no wish to stroke her ego further. Best ignored and then hopefully she will go away.

 

[Foxholer]

Miller's simply a self-promoting individual with a narrow understanding of international trade/economics.

Who had the cahones (and funds) to take on the Government - and was proven correct! She may (or may not) be 'self-promoting' (I'm inclined to believe 'only as much as necessary'!) but neither that, nor her (lack of) expertise in international trade/economics had anything to do with seking and obtaining the ruling that she did!

Ironically, it was all about it being Parliament's responsibiliity for (certain) changes to Law! This was also a major argument of the Leave campaign's anti-EU stance!

 

[drdel]

As, apparently in your opinion, did the entire electorate - you included!

So now you have the capability to know the extent of my (and everyone else's) understanding. FYI I made a decision I'm happy with.

 

[Hobbit]

Commentary piece in the i newspaper today by the Remain supporting Ian Birrell starting with Owen Paterson and his ilk of the hard Brexit ('No Surrender to the EU') cabale.

I just pluck out a few of his choicest and - for me - most 'bang on' observations on them. And yes - I agree with every word and the underlying and barely concealed fury and disgust that Birrell feels towards them - it is not just Leave votes who are currently angry...

And even at this eleventh hour, they carry on with their stunts, scheming and selfish refusal to relinquish their cause despite mountainous evidence of unreality and the looming dangers of no deal.

Former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab accuses colleagues of failing to stand up to EU bullies after flouncing out of cabinet when he failed to fix a better deal. Yet the partners from whom we are seeking divorce could not have been clearer, more consistent or more cohesive in setting out possible terms of departure – for all the nonsense spouted here about retaining access to their markets on our terms.

This deal starkly exposes the fallacies behind pledges promulgated by politicians pursuing anachronistic imperial dreams. The Brexiteers sold a vision of a richer, freer and stronger nation once we shook off the shackles of Brussels with their promises to keep out foreigners, slash red tape and salvage the health service.

Now their land of milk and honey has turned sour as dreams strike reality. We end up with less control of destiny. We see diminished national influence, a disunited kingdom, divided citizens, distraught businesses. Yet shameless Brexiteers simply fan a fresh revolt – brushing aside the dismal reality it is fuelled by their own ineptitude after serial failures in key cabinet posts.

They do not care if they tear down a fourth Tory prime minister. They do not care about the economy, firms and jobs. They do not care if they wreck their own party. They do not care if they hand the nation to self-avowed Marxists. They care only about themselves – and they will sacrifice anything on the altar of their own contemptible vanities.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment...on-refuse-abandon-fantasy-put-country-danger/

My first thought was long on emotive rhetoric and opinions but bu99er all in the way of facts.

And then oh how I laughed you do realise he acknowledges the shackles of Brussels? Priceless!!!

I do hope May is replaced. Its an appalling deal. She may not have been able to negotiate anything better, but "no deal is better than a bad deal."

So what is "no deal?"

First of all, no deal isn't a dead stop in the road. It is the starting point for negotiations. If the current deal is signed, there is no details on a (trade) deal anyway. There is no trade deal relating to products or services in the deal on the table now. The trade deal details is still to be negotiated. So hey ho, lets sign up to a restrictive deal now and hope the EU will agree the details of a trade deal later.

The current deal on the table restricts trade without giving anything in the way of a trade deal with the EU. If I'd taken that to my MD, i.e. a competitor restricting our ability to do deals without getting a deal off them I'd have been sacked - May needs sacking.

On the issue of just who is or was the Brexit Secretary for the last year and a bit. Its worth listening to Ress-Mogg questioning Olly Robbins in the Commons Select Committee. Very revealing. Worth a watch.

 

[Foxholer]

So now you have the capability to know the extent of my (and everyone else's) understanding. FYI I made a decision I'm happy with.

Absolutely not! Read my post again!

I stated that it was YOU that (APPARENTLY) 'had that power'!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My first thought was long on emotive rhetoric and opinions but bu99er all in the way of facts.

And then oh how I laughed you do realise he acknowledges the shackles of Brussels? Priceless!!!

I do hope May is replaced. Its an appalling deal. She may not have been able to negotiate anything better, but "no deal is better than a bad deal."

So what is "no deal?"

First of all, no deal isn't a dead stop in the road. It is the starting point for negotiations. If the current deal is signed, there is no details on a (trade) deal anyway. There is no trade deal relating to products or services in the deal on the table now. The trade deal details is still to be negotiated. So hey ho, lets sign up to a restrictive deal now and hope the EU will agree the details of a trade deal later.

The current deal on the table restricts trade without giving anything in the way of a trade deal with the EU. If I'd taken that to my MD, i.e. a competitor restricting our ability to do deals without getting a deal off them I'd have been sacked - May needs sacking.

On the issue of just who is or was the Brexit Secretary for the last year and a bit. Its worth listening to Ress-Mogg questioning Olly Robbins in the Commons Select Committee. Very revealing. Worth a watch.

...long on emotive rhetoric and opinions but bu99er all in the way of facts.

Which is of course the totality of the Leave campaign's view of the future of the UK - and much of it's interpretation of the UK's current position within the EU

Besides - Birrell is more commenting on the individuals - which is of course his opinion - and not any detail of their views of life out of the EU (though of detail these charlatans provide little in any case)

Of course he acknowledges the shackles that Brussels will (temporarily?) have on the UK in respect of customs agreement - that is why he'll hate the agreement - it so much worse than our current situation. But that is where exiting the EU is taking us.

I also like that in pointing out the 'shackles' the Agreement has us in - Birrell highlights (and Leave voters agree with him) that with May's Agreement the UK loses most of the sovereignty it currently has in the context of the EU - that being the sovereignty that Leave tell us that the UK had already lost for being in the EU and that by leaving we will be regaining. Somehow we seem to have miraculously regained sovereignty without having yet left the EU - to foolishly lose it again under May's Agreement.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.

I voted to stay in the EU based upon what I knew - because what (little or much) I know about the EU it does seem to have worked well enough for the UK over the last 40yrs given the success of our economy. And in my experience it is always better to be in the tent making something better, than outside of it in the trying trying to invent something new to keep us dry and influence those in the tent from whom you are quite separate and have no visibility of what they are doing.

And I looked at the completely undefined alternative to remaining, with all the associated risks and likely issues from extracting ourselves from a 40yr very close relationship within the EU to which few answers other than harking back to an apparent golden age of the 50s, 60s and 70s. And I thought - really??? the UK in severe austerity post WWII and before the internet and the global economy is what I am pointed at as a vision of the future?

I then also looked at the characters selling Leave to me - and if I had had any doubts then that would have clinched it for me.

And still these same Brextremists continue to sell us their wares - despite the mountain of evidence that suggests that just about everything they sell is a mirage - a mere figment of their imagination. And 'just about' - because if or when we leave the EU there will be at least one thing that will be certain - we will be out of the EU - with no representation or influence.

There is of course one other thing that we can be certain about at the moment

There is no limit to the practical, economic and psychological damage the hard-line eurosceptic Brexiteers are prepared to inflict on the rest of us in the pursuit of their delusions or their demented desire for power (JR - NYT)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/...BdaIXLZqmqZLZ7DivfQwkM1DrQPtSStshLRc4Z9ii_BUM