Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sorry, I might not have been entirely clear, it was Foxholer who I said was not being entirely respectful with his comment to Bob. But I agree with Hobbit in that I object to your generalisation of leavers and in that matter you are being disrespectful at times. However, like Hobbit, I'd happily play a round of golf with you - so long as politics was taboo

BTW - my bestest golfing buddy was a Leave voter. We don't talk about it

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The same could be said of the Remain voters. How many of them were aware of the intention to create an EU army? How many of them were aware that the EU intend to create the position of an EU Chancellor, who will have authority to instruct individual countries on their spending? How many were aware of the proposed EU budget numbers for '21 to '27? I can't remember what exactly Juncker said about a week after the vote but it confirmed the Chancellor intention.

All true - not many of us I suspect - and I admit to not being too worried about the future of the EU in such areas, given that the UK has general veto rights in many if not most areas in which the scope of the EU might expand. Where such developments of the EU were drawn to my attention I considered them acceptable given the benefits I see in EU membership and the problems, issues and drawbacks associated with Leaving.

 

[Hobbit]

Just on a side note.. What is the big issue about an EU army. When we have Russia on the Euro border, America flexing its muscles and China waiting patiently in the background. What is the big issue with becoming what would be the biggest dog in the park. A Liberal Superpower with an economy to match.. If you think about it along those lines, it becomes quite apparent why Russia would (allegedly) meddle in our affairs,,

I wouldn't want to antagonise Russia. There was a paper written a few years back by whoever from Cambridge. He quoted Putin saying that Russia has always feared an army on its western border, and that history supports those fears, even if there's no base for those fears in the modern world. Is there a need for an EU army when we already have NATO? The extra money that would go towards creating an EU army, whilst still honouring the NATO commitment, could be used to bolster the NATO commitment.

That would satisfy Trump, who won't be here forever anyway.

 

[Hobbit]

All true - not many of us I suspect - and I admit to not being too worried about the future of the EU in such areas, given that the UK has general veto rights in many if not most areas in which the scope of the EU might expand. Where such developments of the EU were drawn to my attention I considered them acceptable given the benefits I see in EU membership and the problems, issues and drawbacks associated with Leaving.

But you're personalising it to justify it.

Some Remainers would have known those things, just as some Leavers will have known what they were voting for. Cameron et al told us that the UK would be leaving the single market and the customs union.

 

[bluewolf]

I wouldn't want to antagonise Russia. There was a paper written a few years back by whoever from Cambridge. He quoted Putin saying that Russia has always feared an army on its western border, and that history supports those fears, even if there's no base for those fears in the modern world. Is there a need for an EU army when we already have NATO? The extra money that would go towards creating an EU army, whilst still honouring the NATO commitment, could be used to bolster the NATO commitment.

That would satisfy Trump, who won't be here forever anyway.

I agree that in the long run we should be strengthening NATO, but in the current climate then I'm failing to see why discussions surrounding an EU Army (which we would have a veto on) appear to be a step too far for some. Increased contributions I can understand. Increased control from Brussels I can understand. An Eu Army is one I'm struggling with..

Still, it takes all sorts eh?

 

[Old Skier]

Just on a side note.. What is the big issue about an EU army,

Finance and commitment for starters before you go into command and control.

NATO is failing because many who signed up will not honor their funding arrangements and there have been several instances where countries have refused to release assets (one reason that gets the yanks back up long before Trump).

But it's never going to happen, the EU have never suggested it. I think that's what SILH said.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Where do I ever show disrespect to a forum member - I truly never wish to do so. I may disagree vehemently with a view expressed - I might think it completely utter rubbish - but that does not mean that I show disrespect to the person expressing it.

I might say that I believe that what the country is doing in leaving the EU is utter madness - complete self-harming folly - but that does not mean that I think those who voted to leave are either mad or foolish.

And if I have ever expressed disrespect to any individual I apologise.

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. When in fact the truth must surely be that it is May's Deal, No Deal or Remain - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.

You have shown plenty of disrespect to anyone who chose to vote Leave as I demonstrated in the past, quoting your posts; when confronted with the indiscretions you ran away for a few days and civilised debate reigned on the thread. The fact that the old thread has been wiped doesn't mean that my memory got wiped at the same time. The general tone of it was an inference that all Leave voters were racist knuckle-draggers with single figure IQ's. To hide behind an "apology" of this nature is actually more insulting to me the some of the vitriol you posted on here.

And the reason that you get so much venom on here was your insistence on personalising the insults rather than indulging in sensible discussion.

Still I suppose you'll be happy that someone else has taken the bait and you are managing to perpetuate your massive wind up. Well done.

 

[Slime]

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. When in fact the truth must surely be that it is May's Deal, No Deal or Remain - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.

The electorate have already made their choice regarding the third choice, so that has to be excluded from any further vote.
That'd just play into the remainers' hands, which is exactly what they are after.
Surely, in a democracy, the vote has to be May's Deal or No Deal.

 

[chrisd]

Let's face it, the Labour Party are simply a bunch of chancers, no attempt by them to abide by the public vote as they said they would, just try and grab a General Election because it's realistically the only chance they have with Corbyn in charge.

 

[Slime]

Oh, and I'd go for No Deal!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Where do I ever show disrespect to a forum member - I truly never wish to do so. I may disagree vehemently with a view expressed - I might think it completely utter rubbish - but that does not mean that I show disrespect to the person expressing it.

I might say that I believe that what the country is doing in leaving the EU is utter madness - complete self-harming folly - but that does not mean that I think those who voted to leave are either mad or foolish.

And if I have ever expressed disrespect to any individual I apologise.

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. When in fact the truth must surely be that it is May's Deal, No Deal or Remain - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.

Wrong , not for the first time in this thread or the last time but that’s just wrong

We have had one vote already - out or in and the result was out

Any vote now ( if there was a vote ) would only be - Out with deal or no deal

 

[Hobbit]

I agree that in the long run we should be strengthening NATO, but in the current climate then I'm failing to see why discussions surrounding an EU Army (which we would have a veto on) appear to be a step too far for some. Increased contributions I can understand. Increased control from Brussels I can understand. An Eu Army is one I'm struggling with..

Still, it takes all sorts eh?

The UK could veto the creation of the EU army but its already in existence in a different form covered by the EU Foreign and Security policy. It operates across 3 continents. More worrying for Russia is the Neighbourhood Partnership the EU has signed with Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine, which includes security. Putin is not a happy bunny about it. Its antagonistic, and not good politics to shift the balance of power in the region.

The EU has already instructed the member states that Member States must ‘undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities,' using Article 42(3). That instruction was sent out knowing that a referendum would be needed in both Ireland and the UK if it went ahead with the formal creation of an EU army. They're forcing it through by the back door - that's the creeping federalism that many Leavers griped about.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

The electorate have already made their choice regarding the third choice, so that has to be excluded from any further vote.
That'd just play into the remainers' hands, which is exactly what they are after.
Surely, in a democracy, the vote has to be May's Deal or No Deal.

By that reckoning the electorate have already made there choice about the deal or no deal situation.
The vote was to leave, which surely means to leave everything.

Remain or leave, there wasn’t any mention of half in half out, deals or backstops on the ballot paper.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

BTW - my bestest golfing buddy was a Leave voter. We don't talk about it

One of my bowls partners is a raving nae surrender Britnat unionist, even flies a flag in his garden, we get along just fine.

BTW anyone previously heard of the new Brexit Minister ?
Cambridge graduate who worked in finance, he should fit in just fine.

 

[ColchesterFC]

BTW anyone previously heard of the new Brexit Minister ?
Cambridge graduate who worked in finance, he should fit in just fine.

There are some fantastic comments on the BBC News website under the story about his appointment. Things along the lines of "At the rate they're going through them everyone in the country is going to get a shot at being Brexit Secretary before we leave" or "There are only 5 more Brexit Secretaries until Xmas" but i think my favourite so far is "Theresa May has managed to fully respect the result of the referendum with her negotiations. If her agreement gets passed we'll be 52% out and 48% in".

But to answer your question, nope not a scooby who he is.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Question; if, as it appears, our political masters are determined to keep us in, how much would remaining in cost us? I'm sure Macron & Merkel would welcome our money with open arms if the decision was made, but on what terms would we return; same as we left on; receive some concessions; or be punished for our cheek?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Question; if, as it appears, our political masters are determined to keep us in, how much would remaining in cost us? I'm sure Macron & Merkel would welcome our money with open arms if the decision was made, but on what terms would we return; same as we left on; receive some concessions; or be punished for our cheek?

I don’t think we would be “punished” as such but I think we would actually get some concessions - the likes that Cameron should have negotiated first time around. I don’t think we would be “worse off” if we stayed in the EU

 

[Taz]

Let's face it, the Labour Party are simply a bunch of chancers, no attempt by them to abide by the public vote as they said they would, just try and grab a General Election because it's realistically the only chance they have with Corbyn in charge.

Did anyone watch QT last night ?

The trotsky union guy !!

He was baying for a GE, like Labour was a sho e in to win.
The opinion polls I've seen suggest otherwise but if the did get i n I can't see them having a majority unless the do a deal with the SNP.

 

[chrisd]

Did anyone watch QT last night ?

The trotsky union guy !!

He was baying for a GE, like Labour was a sho e in to win.
The opinion polls I've seen suggest otherwise but if the did get i n I can't see them having a majority unless the do a deal with the SNP.

I don't understand QT having speakers who can't debate, he was a total plank!

 

[Deleted member 1147]

By that reckoning the electorate have already made there choice about the deal or no deal situation.
The vote was to leave, which surely means to leave everything.

Remain or leave, there wasn’t any mention of half in half out, deals or backstops on the ballot paper.

I probably ought to add that I’m a staunch remainer...but that’s where I understood the Brexshit conundrum to be.