Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy. Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic. Democracy is a process. There is a set process for parliamentary elections and choosing and replacing governments. There is no set process for choosing to leave and rejoin the EU. The democratic process in respect of Leaving/Remaining can only truly operate prior to leaving. That should be very obvious.

It is very obvious that enacting the result of a vote is democracy. The vote was to Leave(sadly). It wasn’t a vote on the terms of leaving. It was made very clear by the Remain team that leaving would entail leaving the single market and the customs union.

What we are seeing now is an almighty fudge by a Remain PM to stay in.

 

[IanM]

As SILH has said consistently, democracy is a process and people can change their mind, so you need to keep checking....

I wonder what that means.... a General election every 3 years, or maybe 2, or how about every month. maybe weekly???

No. What he means is, I disagree, please vote again till you plebs get it right. He is not alone. The EU have achieved this every time anyone has voted against any Treaty, transfer of power or even membership.

Mrs May is just messing it up to ensure we dont go. She will be well rewarded by Brussels for her loyalty... as were the Kinnocks and Tony B. Nice work if you can get it.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy. Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic. Democracy is a process. There is a set process for parliamentary elections and choosing and replacing governments. There is no set process for choosing to leave and rejoin the EU. The democratic process in respect of Leaving/Remaining can only truly operate prior to leaving. That should be very obvious.

Respect the leave vote? You've done no such thing over the 1000's of pages and posts on this and other threads!!

Even though there won't be another vote, what would your position be if there was and the electorate decided that actually the final deal was not in the best interests of the UK and therefore we left under 'no deal' terms? Would you accept that? Your previous suggests that you wouldn't and you'd therefore continue to argue for yet another referendum/vote!

Let's face it all you want is for the UK to remain in the EU. You have not accepted a democratic process that has already taken place!

Were you one of those children who kept on screaming and screaming until they got what they wanted? Because that's how you're coming across (I would imagine to most remainers as well).

 

[Hobbit]

And the EU continues to rush through free trade deals around the world, pre-empting the UK's desire to set up deals prior to Brexit. And shock of shocks, the EU continues to say no to a free trade deal with the UK.

EU to sign its biggest free trade deal with Japan
The European Union and Japan will sign one of the world's biggest free trade deals later on Tuesday.
The move will create an open trade zone covering nearly a third of the world's GDP and 600 million people.
One of the biggest EU exports to Japan is dairy goods, while cars are one of Japan's biggest exports.
The move is in sharp contrast to the stance taken by the Trump administration in the US, which has introduced steep import tariffs.
The US was in talks with Japan and other Asian countries 18 months ago about a wide-ranging free-trade agreement, the Trans-Pacific trade agreement, but Donald Trump withdrew from this in one of his first moves after becoming president.
Since then, his "America First" policy has seen tariffs introduced on a range of items, including steel, which both Japan and the EU export to the US.
'Political will'
Firms in the EU, the world's biggest free-trade zone, currently export more than $100bn (£75bn) in goods and services to Japan, the world's third-biggest economy, every year.
The EU's top officials will be in Japan for the signing ceremony, including the EU Council's President, Donald Tusk, and the European Commission's head, Jean-Claude Juncker.
Speaking in China on Monday, Mr Tusk said: "It is the common duty of Europe and China, but also America and Russia, not to destroy [the global trade order] but to improve it, not to start trade wars which turned into hot conflicts so often in our history.
"There is still time to prevent conflict and chaos."
Japan's Minister for Economic Revitalisation, Toshimitsu Motegi, said on Tuesday: "At a time when protectionist measures are gaining steam globally, the signing of the Japan-EU deal today will show the world once again our unwavering political will to promote free trade."
Source: BBC

 

[jp5]

I'm sure we could strike that deal with the EU, though of course it wouldn't cover the bulk of our economy of services and it would mean border checks on goods - which it seems the Government is not keen on.

 

[hors limite]

I wish that the Leavers would spell out how we are going to be better off outside the EU. I have yet to hear a sensible reply to the concerns about the loss of frictionless trade. Similarly, why on earth in the context of the size of the respective markets would a country offer the UK a better trade deal than it would the EU? Marvellous new export markets - the Germans are doing wonderfully well exporting their goods outside the EU and within the present trade deals. Could it be that it's not the EU that's holding the UK back but the lack of enough attractive products? Tariffs, Rees Mogg keeps telling us that some goods could be cheaper and if pressed he talks about bloody shoes! The threat to existing and future inward investment - if the frictionless trade disappears and any sort of tariff is applied, things look bleak.In financial and other services where we are very strong, there is definitely going to some loss of access to the EU market with the job losses that will follow.
Brexiteers are content to trot out "project fear" and "don't believe the experts". Doesn't it remind you of someone else's "fake news"?

 

[IanM]

Well, no one actually knows whether we'll be better off or not. It depends on the prevailing world economic conditions in the future and the ability and willignness of the UK Govt to do a decent job of it!!

But this isnt just about being "better off economically" is it? Of course, that has been the main thrust of the "post Referrendum" Remain campaign - which rather than stop in 2016, upped it's expenditure.

Some folk have even been convinced by it!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Besides - Leaving the EU is one process; Re-Engaging with the EU is another quite separate process.

But it is clearly sensible to run both processes in parallel as there is no point in breaking all integrations and links with the EU as a result of leaving - only to then have to go through the process of later recreating them for a Re-Engagement. And so we have the mantra that nothing is agreed until all is agreed. But that is as much pragmatic expediency as anything else.

The UK is currently leaving the EU and is taking back control over the terms of re-engagement of UK with EU. We know this for sure as May has set out her Red Lines - the UK is in control. Now UK might decide to blur or ignore one or more of these red Lines to get a re-engagement deal. But we are in control of that.

And that is what I believe May is saying.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well, no one actually knows whether we'll be better off or not. It depends on the prevailing world economic conditions in the future and the ability and willignness of the UK Govt to do a decent job of it!!

But this isnt just about being "better off economically" is it? Of course, that has been the main thrust of the "post Referrendum" Remain campaign - which rather than stop in 2016, upped it's expenditure.

Some folk have even been convinced by it!

You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy. For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter). It just is.

 

[IanM]

You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy. For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter). It just is.

Ignorant generalisation which you've posted on here several thousand times now.... And ignored the possibility of all the others! Never mind... Russians dun it guv!

 

[Old Skier]

I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy. Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic.

From the man who doesn't respect the referendum vote which was leave and should be respected by the politicians who are finding every which way they can to stay.

Whole thing is a massive con, as is the suggestion that remainers want a second referendum. Another lie.

 

[Old Skier]

You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy. For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter). It just is.

You continue to trot out your blinkered view on why people voted the way they did and as normal your wrong.

 

[bobmac]

You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy. For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter). It just is.

So you claim you know what 17.4m voters were thinking over 2 years ago.
That's an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence.

Please give your evidence for this claim

 

[Old Skier]

So you claim you know what 17.4m voters were thinking over 2 years ago.
That's an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence.

Please give your evidence for this claim

Wait for it - it will be the old, "I didn't say it, it was someone else guv".

 

[bluewolf]

Same'ol comments by the same'ol posters.

Anyway, in relatively new news. Most political commentators are now stating that it's either going to be a hard Brexit or none at all. The amendments tabled by the ERG have effectively destroyed May's white paper. May has tabled a motion asking for the Summer break to be brought forward (which would possibly save her from being removed).

And in other news, the Leave Campaign would appear to have broken spending rules and overspent by £600k (IIRC).

Interesting times. Would this be time to remind people that a Government agency claimed that 2.7m jobs would be at risk from a hard Brexit?

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy. For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter). It just is.

Yes you are absolutely right. I don't give a stuff if my job goes down the pan and I lose my home, my kids have no future and there is nobody to make up the beds in the hotels that I will no longer be able to afford to stay in. All that matters is we kick the foreigners out :thup:


You seriously do come out with some utter rubbish!

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Interesting times. Would this be time to remind people that a Government agency claimed that 2.7m jobs would be at risk from a hard Brexit?

I'm sure if I googled long enough I could another Government agency that claims 2.8m new jobs will be created

 

[bluewolf]

Yes you are absolutely right. I don't give a stuff if my job goes down the pan and I lose my home, my kids have no future and there is nobody to make up the beds in the hotels that I will no longer be able to afford to stay in. All that matters is we kick the foreigners out :thup:


You seriously do come out with some utter rubbish!

You do paint such a bright picture 😂😂

 

[bluewolf]

I'm sure if I googled long enough I could another Government agency that claims 2.8m new jobs will be created

Go on then

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Go on then

OK hang on......I'll be right back..........................